new start

[Nistiman]

Regarding Piling's position on the PKK:

Just the other day, I was fortunate to have heard the same story from a Burkay supporter so I know a lot of work has gone into its creation and propagation (although the one I heard had a different beginning).

And if someone does not know the PKK and does not wish to understand it, this is the version that will be brainwashed into him or her. And because it is uttered by educated people, an outsider who is already biased, who doesn't want any trouble, and who doesn't expend the effort to find out the truth, will readily accept this more 'enlightened' version. He will likely consider PKKers "too boring" or "strict" to even pursue trying to understand better because he already has a tale that is so neat and tidy and appears to have a lot of explanatory power (WHY else would people shout "Biji Serok Apo" if they were NOT brainwashed by Apo? - no one is curious to find out "why else?").

It would seem from Piling's position that Apo purposely lost the war in the 1990s by refusing to attack Western Turkey and that is something, according to Piling, that should have been condemned.

Then, why have the anti-PKK'ers, like the PSK, have always criticized PKK for using violent means? You criticize the PKk for taking up arms and then blame them when they don't become a terrorist movement??? I don't get that.

If they believe it was in the interest of the Kurds to become a terrorist movement, why did they not organize themselves into armed groups and start attacks in Western Turkey? Was it the lack of money?

And, let's say, we believe the PSK when they say they dislike the PKK because they use 'violent methods'. Then why do they not praise Ocalan for what he did after his arrest and the 'democratic republic' solution? Isn't this what they have been asking for?

If you're going to criticize something, then thinking individuals will not take you seriously if you speak from both sides of your mouth.

The PKK attempts to politicize the Kurdish people, develop Kurdish nationalism, instill Kurdish pride, revolutionize the Kurdish struggle by helping to develop a Kurdish satellite television and you make the criticism that it was used for propaganda and for killing the Kurdish language? Give me a break!

As for the long speeches from Apo or from any of the military commanders, from what I observed, they were appreciated by the Kurdish people. I sincerely am thankful for the PKK for politicizing the Kurdish populace so that they are aware of developments inside and out of Kurdistan. Rather than expecting people to just follow the PKK blindly, they give 'analyses' of current events and developments within the party ideology. It is up to the people who hear the PKK's position to decide what they would like to think.

Back to Piling's narrative...

So, Apo would purposely want to lose the war in the 1990s because he thought that losing a war would somehow help his popularity? He was concerned about 'military commanders getting more powerful than him' but he wasn't at all concerned about the Turkish military beating him? And he probably thought that guerrillas would be more loyal to him if they were starving and lacked weapons? Right, this is all making sense now.... According to your logic, a man who has a great estimation of himself also WANTED to get captured by the Turks, right? He probably faked the bombings in Syria just to make it easier for the Turks to catch him?

And, obviously, Apo made it easy to give anti-PKKers more material after his arrest.

I guess even that's not enough, they must back it up with: "PKK is working with mafia and Turkish forces to oppress and rackett Kurds"...

I don't agree with what he said for the last five years, but my basis of criticism is fundamentally different than yours and at the end of the day, I see Apo as a leader of the Kurdish people. His imprisonment is a stain on our national honor MORE than his words could ever be.

A person who criticizes the PKK for not supporting Kurdish unity, and then expends a great deal of their energy undermining the efforts of the PKK should give people something to think about... Who are the real people against unity? A lot of my friends who were anti-PKKers have now found a temporary safe haven with the KDP where they can get credit for PKK bashing. And believe me, there is no freedom of opinion on the other side either. You either agree that PKK is anti-Kurd or else you are looked upon as suspect. I don't think there's any honor in that.

And, what is more, when I see that the position which I have criticized is changing along the very path which I advocated for, I will have the honesty to appreciate it and not continue to find new or old faults of the PKK ... Supporting the PKK does not mean I will be with them every twist and turn of their policies, but I will not be one of those alligators that Cheryl mentioned trying to bite at their heels.

[tomjez]

As for the long speeches from Apo or from any of the military commanders, from what I observed, they were appreciated by the Kurdish people. I sincerely am thankful for the PKK for politicizing the Kurdish populace so that they are aware of developments inside and out of Kurdistan. Rather than expecting people to just follow the PKK blindly, they give 'analyses' of current events and developments within the party ideology. It is up to the people who hear the PKK's position to decide what they would like to think.

"Appreciated by kurdish people"

Yeah maybe. Anyway if someone does not appreciate it they kill him right?

98 per cent of Iraqis voted for Saddam when there were elections.

[tomjez]

My turn to ask questions.

what does PKK want now. what is their stategy, who is the leader (the real one), what are they fighting for. Do they have any chance to achieve that.

[Piling]

so I know a lot of work has gone into its creation and propagation (although the one I heard had a different beginning).

Kemal Burkay is one of the oldest Kurdish politicians... So he has endured the PKK for a long time (often called a "black fascist traitor" by our dear democrats of the PKK), and then PSK members know him very well, as former PKK members, as people who are involved in policy for a long time... and know the PKK for a long time. The problem with young members, is that they ignore all the history of their own party... Like 1984 novel : on monday, Big Brother Apo says : Barzani is a traitor... everybody repeat it... on tuesday Bog Brother says : Talabani is a traitor... everybody repeat it... on thirsday Big Brother says : Atatürk is a great man and WE, KURDS, should admire him... and on friday, etc...

And if someone does not know the PKK and does not wish to understand it, this is the version that will be brainwashed into him or her.

I know the PKK, more than you, I know them in Europa and in the country, and not only in Turkey, but in Syria and Iraq too. All what I say are things and events I saw myself of from "direct sources" of informations.

It would seem from Piling's position that Apo purposely lost the war in the 1990s by refusing to attack Western Turkey and that is something, according to Piling, that should have been condemned.

Well if you start a war, your main aim should be victory. It was not the case. Öcalan cared of his own power inside the party, more than winning the war. The guerilla was not a great trouble for Turks, except for soldiers. Western Turkey lived in 90s out of the war... It was a disaster for Kurds. Kurdistan has been burnt and ethnically cleaned. In Botan, Dersim, there are no villages anymore. Of course Turks are the main guilty. But Öcalan has never cared of the consequence of his policy. He asked heavy sacrifices to his people, and has never accepted to lost one hair from his own precious head... He need war as Arab dictatorsip need war against Israël : they don't care of Palestinians, but they need war to set their own dictatorship.

Was it the lack of money?

As I told you, the PKK was very rich, but millions were spending in other things than war, MED TV for example. Chechens are 100% better furnished in weapons than the guerilla in 90 !Why ? there were money. But öcalan did not want a too strongest guerilla. And he rather to make it fight in Southern Kurdistan, against PUK or PDK than to fight really Turkey.

And, let's say, we believe the PSK when they say they dislike the PKK because they use 'violent methods'.

I don't care if the PKK uses violent methods against Turkish army or police, but when they use against Kurds, other parties, for example. Do you approve the murder of Sipan Rojhilat in 2003 ? Do you approve the murder of Kemalê Sor last year ? Do you approve when they prevent S,ivan Perwer to sing in Germany or Greece ? The PKK is an instrument of terror among Kurds, and not Turks... So this kind of violence, yes, I condemn it.

The PKK attempts to politicize the Kurdish people, develop Kurdish nationalism, instill Kurdish pride,

No. Kurdish people are not politicized by the PKK. Policy is thinking, contradictory debate, democratical exchanges of points of view, not "obey or die". They have not politicized them, they just repeat a stupid old marxist stuff (in Turkish)... People just had to repeat "Serok, al Haqq ! al Haqq !" as he is Stalin or Enver Hoja.

He is against Kurdish nationalism, be careful they will beat you if you mistake ... "Kurdish nationalism is BAD" and "Kemalism is GOOD FOR KURDS", this is the last "line". And if you protest you are accused of being a "carrierist", a "Feodal", a "pro-Barzani", etc. Why you don't listen to your leader ???? KURDISM IS EVIL. ÖCALAN LOVES TURKEY.

Kurdish pride ? in long seances of self criticism, members should repeat : " I am a donkey. I am a traitor. A fascist. I have to kill the ennemy in myself." öcalan repeat them : "Stupid people ! Dogs ! Donkeys ! Your have to forget your past, your family, they are traitors !" And each member should spy others, to denounce them : "X has relations with a girl. Y has made bad statements against the policy. Z has drunk alcohol. W went to cinema (yes, during a certain period, cinema was forbidden". Kurdish pride ? A party of spy and informers ! Where everydody feared of everybody, when 2 members had for issue to make a deal "OK. In the next seance of denonciation, I will tell only that against you, and you will tell only this agaisnt me." Kurdish pride, sure...

he wasn't at all concerned about the Turkish military beating him?

*

He didn't want to win nor to lose. The statu quo was better for him.

And he probably thought that guerrillas would be more loyal to him if they were starving and lacked weapons

He did not care of its loyalty. He trust no one. But a weak guerilla was not so dangerous for him. They were too busy to survive in very hard conditions. Moreover, there were many "epurations" among commandants. And when he had been arrested, he stated the end of the war, without caring the guerilla's fate. They stayed in mountains, whith bound hands. Turks wo'nt accept amnesty, they have not the right to leave the guerilla. Just the right to stay in mountains until death. Who cares ? Not Öcalan.

His imprisonment is a stain on our national honor MORE than his words could ever be.

I think exactly the contrary. His words is a great shame, more than his stupid arrest (he was responsible of his arrest, no one forced him to leave Italia, and Italia would never have expelled him). What would have think of Öcalan's statement a man like Mazlum Dogan ?

Who are the real people against unity?

Unity means for the PKK : "Everybody should obey blindfully to our beloved leader. He thinks for us. Then shut up." This is totalitarism, not unity.

ou either agree that PKK is anti-Kurd

The PKK is against all that is not PKK.

Supporting the PKK does not mean I will be with them every twist and turn of their policies

Don't criticize too loudly. they will be angry with you...

[Diri]

Let's just agree on one thing:

Barzanî was with his Pêshmerge day and night - fighting in the mountains... Apo was in his suit in a luxurious hotel in Damascus and Beirut - driking and enjoying life...


To those who do not know what I mean by this - I will come of as a Barzanî-feodal-agent... But I am in reality - only interested in the TRUTH and the RIGHT WAY... Misleading Kurds into thinking that "There is no Kurdistan without Apo" IS A BIG FAT SIN! Talk about being STUPID!

[tomjez]

[Diri]

I feel these discussions would be more giving if we had somebody here who was drowned in PKK propaganda... Like Berxwedan... (I know you are reading this)...

[Dilsad]

Tell me Piling, Tomjez, Diri, and all the other pkk bashing people...who bash it for no other reasons that they support another party...and are simnply repeating some party line...

let's imagine a perfect world without the pkk. Let say that in 1978 the pkk was not created, and apo simply went on and got his degree in political science as well as the other founders.

Tell me guys, take a second or a minute and give me the picture of Kurdistan today...

Now boys and girls your work will be graded by the forum, so please make sure you are all doing some good work...
ANd yes, Piling you can go ahead and use the Oldest Kurdish Politician as a main character...Diri, you can even invent one (I know you have such a great imagination) and Tomjez, as long as you don't bring in some ancient God from Brittany, you're good to go.

Nistiman, well, I think you're post is great (it's good to not feel like I'm crazy and I lived in a parallel universe...I should really stop the drinking though), but when you grow up (since you must be such a YOUNG member of that party) you'll understand that things are more complicated...but for now you'll get an A+ !!!


D...

[Piling]

I don't support any party. Just think that a totalitarian and murderer movement is worse than all others.

let's imagine a perfect world without the pkk. Let say that in 1978 the pkk was not created, and apo simply went on and got his degree in political science as well as the other founders. Tell me guys, take a second or a minute and give me the picture of Kurdistan today...

No millions of Kurdish refugees. No 5000 villages burnt. That is some certain points. Would Kurds have forgot their identity ? No one could know. How could remake History ?


But I notice that "eternal "last argument of Apocî... When you present all the crimes of PKK, they answer only : "It would have been worse without us..."
Perhaps, perhaps not. Who knows ?

But I repeat my questions (you and Nis,timan always insist for we answer to your questions but you never do the same )

Do you approve the murder of opponents like Sipan Rojhilat in 2003 or Kemalê Sor last year ? Do you approve when they prevent S,ivan Perwer to sing in Germany or Greece ? Do you approve when they beat some Kurdish writers and prevent them to organize cultural stands ? Do you approve Öcalan when he says :I beg pardon to Turks, I am Kemalist, I am against a KUrdish state ?

[Dilsad]

I've answered those questions already...

but I know I know, if someone doesn't bash 100% the pkk,

"look at them with suspicion, becasue they may be agents"


from the best seller "how to spot a pkk supporter", a collaboratve work between the KDP, PUK and Burkay's.

No I do not support killings and murders, nore do I support racketering and forbidding an artist to sing at thi splace or the other.
And no I will not support or understand why he asked the turkish motrhers for their forgivness!

Is that answering your questions?

Oh, shit, you better go to the Tome 2 of the book, cuz I am not one of those crasy supporter...
Too bad it is only coming out next year...so you'll have to wait a few months for "reading" a reply...

D...
En toute solidarite!!!

[tomjez]

Yeah I never had an answer for that either...

Tell me Piling, Tomjez, Diri, and all the other pkk bashing people...who bash it for no other reasons that they support another party...and are simnply repeating some party line...

what party? Do you think it's impossible to have a peronal advice? Why as a foreigner should I follow the line of any kurdish party...

No millions of Kurdish refugees. No 5000 villages burnt. That is some certain points. Would Kurds have forgot their identity ? No one could know. How could remake History

Hard to say there was a huge repression even before PKK arrived to worthen it.

I don't think they would have forget their identity though. Kurdish indentity seems to be stronger in iraq, and Anfal was certainly worse than Turkish repression....

and Tomjez, as long as you don't bring in some ancient God from Brittany, you're good to go.

And actually Brittany was founded by Monks and priests, and christian immigrants from the original Brittany (great britain...). I'm Atheist anyway

[Diri]

I won't answer your questions, Dilshad...

I am sure you wanna know why (I am dying to tell you anyway):

After millions and billions of posts - where I and Piling and Tom and ANYBODY else would have said "I am not for one party or the other" - you will STILL accuse me and others of being ANTI-PKK - because we suppport "another party"...

Generally speaking - you come of as a very arrogant person... And I don't understand what you meant by "Diri, you can even invent one (I know you have such a great imagination)"----> Do you realy think that you are so much better? And that for some reason your oppinions need more attention because you "know the deal"? I am sorry - but I live in a Democracy - where we listen to what everybody has to say - and we DROP the attitude when we want to interact with other people... We don't stand on a hill and shout down to the goat herders... We sit down with them and discuss... Sharing the bread made by them and the milk from the goat, as we sit there...


So Dilshad ---> Come down from that hill...

[Dilsad]

see I told you you could invent something ...

Eating the bread and the milk from the goat?

mhm...if coming down the hill means going back to the "cave of shadows" then, no thanks I will stay on top of the hill where I can watch all of you looking at your own shadows and believing that it is reality.

I know that you don't support 100% this party or another, all I'm asking you is to be nuanced and simply recognize when someone some group did do something good for all of us.

But you and some others have such a hatred (I really don't know where it comes from) that it blinds you.

If you don't believe me, and I hate doing this but simply go to this topic I added about THanksgiving a few days ago in the world section:


I wrote:

This week, acrross the US we are celebrating a holliday! ThanksGiving with a big G....for Genocide
How do our american friends and kurds living in the US feel about it?

and you replied:

That is part of the rhetoric I don't understand... When does the PKK stop talking one second about Apo and focus on the devestation in Kurdistan by the Turks, Persians and Arabs? How about - does it stop for a second and appeal to our nation as ONE? Or does it appeal to us as "apoci"? Cause I am not Apoci - and no Barzanî or Telebanî supporter... I am glad to hear that Barzanî says "We will have no choice but to declare independence if Shia and Sunni start a civil war"... But I am not glad to hear Apo say "there is no Kurdistan - we are Turks - and we are free in Turkey"... Do you understand my rhetoric? I am only for those who want to build Kurdistan... Not those who oppose it...

I mean I hate to do that and go back to some old postings, but I think in this case it is relevant. Was your hatred blinding the fact that I was talking about something else than the pkk?

Anyways, I don't want Nistiman to go and start another topic ("new start 2") because you and I are having a debate a deux...

I don't find myself arrogant, I agree that sometimes I am a bit sarcastic (ok a lot) but it is also what I think makes our discussions bareable, ...some humor doesn't hurt...

Now, TOmjez,

you don't need to be a kurd to follow some party line,...and you are the living proof...


D...

[Nistiman]

Nistiman, ...when you grow up (since you must be such a YOUNG member of that party) you'll understand that things are more complicated...but for now you'll get an A+ !!!

Merhaba ji te re Mamoste Dilshad!!!! Gelek spas!

And Diri, I think you have misunderstood Dilshad...you have to be careful of French raised Kurds, their humour has a touch of sarcasm not to be mistaken with arrogance...

I'm going to die a slow miserable death over finals if I don't get back to studying so, I'll type to you guys later!!!

[Dilsad]

Taking finals...

mhm, well this isn't an excuse, cuz I'm taking some too!
God I have to go back to it...as well...thanks for reminding me

Good luck Nistiman and all the other poor students that are taking their exams...


D...