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Northern Kurdistan or Western Armenia?

A place for discussion and exchanging ideas about Kurdistan issues here, also a place for sharing article & views and analysis about Kurdistan .

Northern Kurdistan or Western Armenia?

PostAuthor: abdur » Wed May 11, 2005 10:09 pm

The lands around Van, Kars, Erzurum, Igdir and mount Ararat used to be armenian populated lands, they had 4 kingdoms from 190 BC till 1374.
After the genocide in 1915 committed by the turks (with the help of kurdish tribes) there were no armenians left anymore in these areas and it's inhabited mainly by the kurds now.

This map shows what land would belong to the armenians according to the sevres treaty.
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Question, should this land be called historical western Armenia or is it a part of northern Kurdistan?

If Kurds say Mosul and Kerkuk are parts of Kurdistan even though the kurds were expelled from there by arabic regimes can we also say this for "western Armenia" even though there are no armenians left there?
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Northern Kurdistan or Western Armenia?

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PostAuthor: heval » Wed May 11, 2005 10:52 pm

You are correct that much of those areas in that region were dominated by Armenians, however keep in mind that Armenians were not the only ethnic group populating those areas. Although they were majority, there were Kurds living in those areas for decades. However, I do not think we can entirely object to those areas around Van.

Also, you might want to consider looking into the ancient history of the Kurds. You will find that the Hurrian people (the oldest ancestors of the Kurds) were the first group of people to dominate the Southern and Northern lands of Kurdistan where they eventually established the Kingdom of Mitanni. Later, the Medes, the second people from which Kurds are descendants of, would come and settle in Mitanni and along the Zagros Mountains.

Furthermore, about Kirkuk... Those areas were also part of the Hurrian kingdom and have remained ethnically Kurdish since their settlement. The Kurds have a long history in those regions. The Arabs did not come to those regions until the Islamic conquests began and therefore it is unfair to say that it is part of Arab Iraq and not Southern Kurdistan.

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PostAuthor: kassem » Wed May 11, 2005 11:20 pm

w
Last edited by kassem on Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostAuthor: dyaoko » Thu May 12, 2005 5:39 am

Armenians and Kurds are natural friends, at least in Eastern Kurdistan.
you know there are many Kurdish songs that show Kurdish Love to amrens...
like this one "bi khano manim armani qazat la gyanim aramni...." (have you heared it ?)

the history hasnt recored a bloody war between Kurds and Armenians. They always lived next to each other like two brothers.

well before Kurds have a government they were attakced by assyrians...then Dyaoko , called the Collected Mans of Medes and Persinas
to make a government on their own so they protect their nation from Assyrians.

those maps that shows Kurdistan a part Armenia or Assyira is before Dyaoko , means we can say they had occupied our lands.
in the second Mede's king time , they did a revolution against assyrians and they defeated them and made Medya Empire.


thre is an areminan forum tha I went there to make some friends.
some of them were nice to me and some of them werent...even I reapeated oever and over that I love areminas...they kept on insultign me
they told me i better not to visit Armeina because its peopel hate Kurds.
They told me Turks had promised Kurds , if they Kill armenians , Turks will give Kurds a country...so Kurds helpt Turks to kill armens...

I really dont know how much this is true, because I am not in northern kurdistan and i dont know ...but I said my appologize to them
i said If it is true I am really sorry and woe to those kurds, but it was uselees, some of them kept on telling me
"Turks Ate Armens for Lunch and Kurds ate us for dinner"
I found a link in their forum to an artcile that its writer says

"the iran king of saffavia government had killed armens in iran and replaced them with kurds.."
well as I am an eastern Kurd and I know about iran, I am sure this article is completly lie,
because saffavia Empire was a shia government and was in war sunny Othmaine Empire.
and Kurds were sunny , and Saffavia always looked at them as traitor , -for being sunny-
I have been infromed that safawi government had exciled handresds of thounds of kurds to East of Iran -Todays afganistan Border-
that is called khorasan . to punish them for being Sunny.

so I can belive that Saffavia , had loveed kurds and killed armens and gave their houses to Kurds.

I think it may be a Turkish Propagenda to share their sin with Kurds. to tell armens that Kurds did that genocide not Turks..

whatever... in that forum I found many good armenian friend..the truth is we are natrual friends .
and nothing can stop Kurds and Armenians to be friend.
and if our foolish muslem anncestor really done something bad to armenians , -if we find it true- we must appologize Areminains for that.
and tell them those who comitted those crimes -if there was any- were foolish muslems not a Kurd and we send woe to them.

I am gonnna go to that Armenian Forum and invite some of the armens to join to this discussion ,
I hope this ends a good friendship between our forum and their forum .
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PostAuthor: dyaoko » Thu May 12, 2005 5:46 am

regarding this issue we must do by UN's laws, the UN says a nation in a regiion can take their own slef-determaition ...and decinde what to do with their lifes...

the Kurds who were kicked out from kirkkuk are still Alive and they want to come back to their homes...it is theri right...

if these kurds had died ...we couldnt take Kirkuk back to kurdistan...

if there is any amrenians who says his house been occupied by kurds , should come back to his house ...and I support it . if there is any alive aremian.

Mede Empire owned many lands 2800 years ago,,, but we cant claim all those lands kurdistan now ! beecasue today there isnt any kurd there...like azerbaijan.
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PostAuthor: heval » Thu May 12, 2005 7:01 am

In response to Medya's post...

There is no denying that there was a Kurdish Tribe who helped in the killings of Armenians. However, those people who hate all Kurds for it are ignorant if they are going to base it on that involvement. First of all, that was the participation of only one group of Kurds. In reality, many Kurds were opposed to the Armenian Genocide by the Ottomans. One example is the Kurdish families who helped hide some of the Armenians from the Turks who were hunting them, like the Armenian Singer, Karapete Xaco, who was saved by a Kurdish family. Why don't those Armenians in that forum mention the Kurds who saved some of them? They only mention the Kurds who did wrong. And today I think I can say that all Kurds are saddened by what happened and ashamed that even 1 Kurd took part in that Genocide.

Also, it is common for Assyrians to claim that Kurdistan is theirs. However, they were never in Kurdistan until their Empire expanded into it. And an empire doesn't make the land yours. Historically, Assyrians' origin and the land of Assyria is the piece of land between the Tigris and Euphrates which includes Baghdad and most of the Mosul province. There is no denying that.

Also - you must keep in mind that the Median Empire was not the only origin of the Kurds. The Median People were our ancestors, however, the Kurds oldest ancestors (of which most of our culture comes from) are the Hurrian People. And the Hurrians settled in Kurdistan long before any other group of people over 9000 years ago. The Medes settled in Kurdistan 4000 years later and joined the Hurrians, and the Median language (Kurdi) was eventually adopted by the entire people in the region.

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The case of Armenia

PostAuthor: Diri » Thu May 12, 2005 12:29 pm

I joined this union simply because of this one blogg right here...

Armenians and Kurds have been living in relative peace and serenity for thousands of years... YES THOUSANDS!

HEVAL - The first "Kurds" were not the Hurrians - They were the Halaf... And between them and the Hurrians were two other peoples... and eventually came the era of Medya... Medya was a kingdom with a Kurdish king but subjects of Kurdish, Persian, Turk, Beluchi, Pashto and other...

Why is Wan, Erzerum, Qars, Ararat and other places Kurdish and not Armenian? The answer is not simple and deffinetly not pure... There are always those who seek fortune instead of truth... However this case is one which must be cleared up...

Kurds and Armenians lived together in all those mentioned areas... And then came the turks... They came from MONGOLIA - and brought with them their pathetic lives and culture... So started the era of the Ottomans... They plundered and raped, killed and stole of both Kurdish and Armenian culture heritage! And after 500 years of oppression and arrogance surfaced their true nature...

They denied the exhistence of the Kurds, Armenians, Greek, Laz and Georgians on their territory... They declared Ottoman empire a TURKISH empire and this was at the early days of the 20th century... They had been fighting the Persian empire in the east for ages... but now they sought peace and a conspiracy to undermine the Kurds and Armenians...

They slaughtered the Armenians and Kurds by their thousands... Only the Kurds who declared legians to the turks were spared as the also mostly were of sunni faith... but their was no hope for the Armenians - as they were Christians...

Some Kurdish tribal leaders were tricked into killing their longtime friends and neighbourghs the Armenians - others were treathened to do so...
Many Kurds helped fleeing Armenians... Gave them shelter and food... They even saved some thousands from fatality...

To say Northern Kurdistan is Western Armenia is not quit right... neither is it quit wrong... BUT we must accept today that the Kurds and the dominating factor in these areas and that 3 million Armenians have gotten their homeland... They do not populate the areas which were lost to the Ottomans... So the Kurds living there have now got sole right to the land...
I do however agree that the areas closest to the Armenian border should be given to Armenia as they also populate these areas...

When creating Independent Kurdistan some land from Turkey must be given back to the Armenians and Some must be given to the Georgians... The rest of East Turkey must be given back to the KURDS!
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Re: The case of Armenia

PostAuthor: heval » Thu May 12, 2005 6:49 pm

Diri wrote:HEVAL - The first "Kurds" were not the Hurrians - They were the Halaf... And between them and the Hurrians were two other peoples... and eventually came the era of Medya... Medya was a kingdom with a Kurdish king but subjects of Kurdish, Persian, Turk, Beluchi, Pashto and other...


You are right Diri. The Hurrians came after the Halaf. Thanks. My point is that the Kurds were the first settlers of Kurdistan long before the Kurdish Medya era, and it is illogical for Armenians or Assyrians to claim certain parts of Kurdistan as theirs.
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PostAuthor: Vladimir » Thu May 12, 2005 7:44 pm

Damn this is some interesting informations, do you guys know some books about this. Because most books say the Kurds orignate from the Medes. I also heard a other theory, but I forget which theory that is.
The suppression of ethnic cultures and minority religious groups in attempting to forge a modern nation were not unique to Turkey but occurred in very similar ways in its European neighbours - Bruinessen.

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PostAuthor: heval » Thu May 12, 2005 7:55 pm

Vladimir wrote:Damn this is some interesting informations, do you guys know some books about this. Because most books say the Kurds orignate from the Medes. I also heard a other theory, but I forget which theory that is.


There is a lot of information published by Mehrdad R. Izady. He has a few books I think. You can also find pieces from his books at this link:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/kurdish/htdocs/his/
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The best places to find info about your HISTORY is on the...

PostAuthor: Diri » Mon May 16, 2005 10:12 pm

Search for "Kurdistan Encyclopeadia"... There you'll find lots and lots of info.. Regarding Kurdistan-- OR you can read the history pages on http://www.krg.org! :lol:
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PostAuthor: dyaoko » Tue May 17, 2005 1:18 am

Kurds and Armenians lived together in all those mentioned areas... And then came the turks... They came from MONGOLIA - and brought with them their pathetic lives and culture... So started the era of the Ottomans... They plundered and raped, killed and stole of both Kurdish and Armenian culture heritage! And after 500 years of oppression and arrogance surfaced their true nature...



Diri So so nice to see you here... I hope more Aremenian Friend come to here.... I loved your sentences...these manogilan turks who couldnt attack to chiinnes because of the Chinnnes Wall , tried to attack to Persian Sasanid Empire....but at that time Persian Empire was strong... and they couldnt come in to iran .... Persian Empire sent thousands of these Theif Mognolians to Prison... in the Caspian City. (today is knows Qazvin)

(there are akind of Jokes in Iran , called Qazvini jokes... about these gay mognols in Qazvin City)

then Arabs attacked tro Persian EMpire and defeated Persians....and everything was lost...they fired every book and...
then thoso Mingolians who waited long time to take revenge Persians...started helping Arabs in Killing Iranians... the historians say they almost killed everybody in Eastern Iran , and some citeis were deteletd on the map forever....


then these Mingol Turks felt like to immigrate to go to a better place...which isnt as host as eastern iran...they went to north of capsian sea...and azerbaijan and...todays turkey...they killedevery body there and got their homes...


as you see these theif turks always been seeking to steal somebody's land ....they first wre in mingolia , then in eastern iran , then in central iran , then in north west iran ..then today's turkey...


and today we see they are denying their Asian Source and are gonna join to EU..../ tomorrow they will want to take America or ....
but if you look , We Kurds and Armenians , never leave our home...we loved our home even if our home was hard to live in some times...in hard conditions we never left our home to a a better land taht has more water and ...

we Kurds are Armenians can make the Best possible Friendship on the earth...as you see today Kurds are more Kurd than muslem.

I really hope we can make this allience to take our historical home back from this new comeer turks ..
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Re: The best places to find info about your HISTORY is on th

PostAuthor: Vladimir » Tue May 17, 2005 7:46 pm

Diri wrote:Search for "Kurdistan Encyclopeadia"... There you'll find lots and lots of info.. Regarding Kurdistan-- OR you can read the history pages on http://www.krg.org! :lol:
I want (*@@(* books.
The suppression of ethnic cultures and minority religious groups in attempting to forge a modern nation were not unique to Turkey but occurred in very similar ways in its European neighbours - Bruinessen.

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PostAuthor: Diri » Tue May 17, 2005 10:25 pm

Medya - :D

Thank you for your welcoming words... I am glad you got your history right! :wink:

The thing is that I got the impression you thouht I was Armenian... in fact I am Kurdish - but thats okey - I mean... If I wasn't gonna be a Kurd... I might wanna be a friend of the Kurds...

Don't get me wrong... I would live a thousand lives as a Kurd- but say if... :D


Medya you are from Kermanshah... right??? Or anyhow you are from East Kurdistan.... Where abouts??
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PostAuthor: abdur » Tue May 17, 2005 11:05 pm

Wow great response from all of you, i've read interesting things. But with answers comes new questions. Say if the kurds (halaf) settled there the first, and they never left the area, how did the armenians become the majority in the earlier mentioned cities till 1915? And how long have they been the majority, shouldnt this also be a condition to look after when we discuss about this subject?

About the present and future: I dont consider giving all those lands to the state of Armenia since there are very few armenian people alive from there (if there are regions with an armenian population let them have a referendum), but thinking of this genocide and many of our forfathers coöperating with the turks i think there must be some sort of payment. What can/should future kurdish goverments do to wash this black chapter of our history with our neighboor?

Not suprisingly, this is how the armenians name this region, below is a poll conducted in Armenia:
The public opinion poll showed that the majority of Armenia's population still continues subconsciously to perceive Turkey's western regions as Western Armenia. Answering the question "Where the Armenian Genocide took place?", 76% said in Western Armenia, 19% said in the Ottoman Empire.
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