Kurds undermining Assyrian National Interests in Iraq

[Piling]

The Kurdish Constitution doesnt allow such stop, there is no mention of beeing allowed to form an Region within the Kurdistan Regional Goverment, but rather to annext and normalize the Nineveh Plains to the KRG.

Could you qote the article in the Kurdish Constitution that concerns that point ?

Moreover, it is an IRAQI federal question, it does not depend on KRG. If a referendum is organized in Niniveh area, people could express their choice : being integrated in KRG or staying in Iraq. They could ask a third choice of course, being a real autonomous area like Kurdistan Region, but it needs a serious organisation and good militias against Al Qaeda and Shi'a militias...

the KDP uses assyrian puppets to represent the Assyrians within the KRG and even try things within the Central Goverment in Baghdad.

The point is also that there is no Assyrian unity. Arabized christians from the South hate Kurds like the former Baathists they were. They don't even speak Syriac. Northern Chaldeans and Assyrians are closer to Kurds, because they are the same mountainers. Moreover, much Christian villages are still within the KRG, especially at the Turkish border, and they did not want to go in Nineveh. Other arabized Assyrians want to stay in Iraq, in Bagdad or other cities and hope to come back after the war. They don't care of Niniveh.

The "Assyrian puppets" in the KRG considered themselves as good Kurdistanî, the same with Kurdistani clerics. It is their own right. Much of them fought with Peshmergas. What did say the Patriarch when Saddam destroyed Christian places in Kurdistan ? They also consider Southern religious authorities like former Baathists or pro-Arabs.

Sarkis Aghajan, who is potrayed in Ishtar TV (kurdish chanale....or "kurdistani christan" chanel) to be the hero who builds houes,schools and churches for the Assyrians, but noone has ever elected this person to represent our voice

Not YOUR voice, but Kurdistani christians' voice.

Second think is, if the Kurdish Parties really want that Assyrians form their administrative area, why would they prevent the Assyrian efford to form an Police Force in Nineveh? It was approved by the Baghdad Goverment, but blocked by the Kurdish Politicans who form the council in Mosul (sunnits have boycotted the elections, thats why kurds are majority there).

Be sure that Kurds don't want Mosul. They gained it by accident, and they'll left willingly that crazy city. The trouble is the region of Sheikhan and Northern Mosul area, with Shabaks, Yezidis, Kurds, Christians. You are not alone. Even Niniveh area should be ruled by a council with representatives of everyone.
I don't know why and if the KRG blocked the Police Force in Niniveh. Perhaps they don't trust in their capacity, or they are afraid by Baathist and Al Qaeda infiltration. Currently police in Mosul is under pressure of terrorists and nit very efficient.
More over, Christians in Mosul are not united under the same aim. Some want to stay in Iraq, with Arabs (it was the case of this poor Mar Rahho), some want an independant area, some others want else thing, etc.

whenever KDP starts to work with ADM the only and really assyrian representive Group

Why it is the only and really Assyrian representative group ?

If the Kurds change their contitution so that on the paper it will be written "ASSYRIAN are allowed to form an autonomous area within thei Kurdish Regional Goverment", then there is no way anymore to be on fight witheachother, but rather work witheachother.

The constitution is still in preparation and not yet published I think. Moreover you ar enot logical. You don't want that Niniveh becomes a part of Kurdistan,but you want that Niniveh will be inscribed in Kurdish COnstitution. But for being absolutely independant from Kurds, you should make write your ASSYRIAN area in IRAQI constitution, not in another Federal region's one that not concern you.

In short, if Niniveh need Kurdish help, saety and support, it should accept Kurdish conditions. If Niniveh is an separated federal region, then Christians should express their wish in Baghdad.

[Londoner]

I'm not saying "don't ask for more" - I'm saying: at least APPRECIATE and be THANKFUL for what you DO get...

That is what they used to tell us, Kurds of South Kurdistan, to be thankful to Saddam Hussein and Iraqi Governemnt to give us more than what Kurds of other occupied Kurdistan, getting.

Assyrians or Christians are not under any obligation to appreciate or thank any one for getting their rights back. It is their lost right, which they entitled to get it back. It is not a favour from any one.

[Rumtaya]

I was discussing the Assyrian autonomous area within the KRG, the KRG is stating that Assyrians should join its boundaries to by then they will be givin autonomy in the Nineveh Plains and western dohuk.

The point is also that there is no Assyrian unity. Arabized christians from the South hate Kurds like the former Baathists they were. They don't even speak Syriac. Northern Chaldeans and Assyrians are closer to Kurds, because they are the same mountainers. Moreover, much Christian villages are still within the KRG, especially at the Turkish border, and they did not want to go in Nineveh. Other arabized Assyrians want to stay in Iraq, in Bagdad or other cities and hope to come back after the war. They don't care of Niniveh.

The "Assyrian puppets" in the KRG considered themselves as good Kurdistanî, the same with Kurdistani clerics. It is their own right. Much of them fought with Peshmergas. What did say the Patriarch when Saddam destroyed Christian places in Kurdistan ? They also consider Southern religious authorities like former Baathists or pro-Arabs.

The Assyrian disunited is beeing ongoing suppourted throw the KDP which seeks to make the "christians" to become Kurdistani Christians. Most Assyrians fought with Kurds against the baath regime, but after saddam destroyed and resettled many thousands in Baghdad, Basra and other areas outside Assyria and Kurdistan, the numbers became few.

How do you know all those dont care about Nineveh?..How do you know those who left baghdad want to return back to it? Those people who left baghdad dont want at all hear about that name again (a friend who just left 5 years ago went to syria to see his father and sister, he talked to the people there who do not want to return to baghdad!!!!).

Assyrian baathis very limited, you let it sound as every assyrian who resided in baghdad was a baathist!!! Which Christian places in Kurdistan?... You mean christian places in Assyria?...

Not YOUR voice, but Kurdistani christians' voice.

You are not aware of the situation, noone cares about the Kurdistani stuff.. Have you followed the assyrian new year parade in nohadra (dohuk)? more then 60 000 people celebrating it and more would have come, but there werent enough ressources to do so.

Noone cares about Sarkis Aghajan he is a puppet, if Ishtar TV was not a propaganda TV for Kurds and Sarkis Aghajan, they would have shown the Assyrian New year Parade in Nohadra, but because it was organized by the only elected Assyrian Party namly Assyrian Democriatic Movement they did not talk or show any second of it.

http://themesopotamian.org/mizalta.asf%5B1%5D.asf

here those are the "kurdistani Christians" as you like to call them, they are in NOHADRA which lies in the KRG what they are doing is siding with ADM. The fathers, mothers of those childs you see in the begin have been the one who took up arm alongside kurds against Saddam and they do not wish to be called KURDISTANI´s.

Be sure that Kurds don't want Mosul. They gained it by accident, and they'll left willingly that crazy city. The trouble is the region of Sheikhan and Northern Mosul area, with Shabaks, Yezidis, Kurds, Christians.

Which Christians? why do you name yezedis diffrent they are Kurds. but still which Christians do you mean?...sorry I dont understand it you want force all the 2 billion christians to live in the nineveh plains?... when you refer to a group call them by their national identity, because we dont own Christianty nor do we have any copy rights on it!

Why it is the only and really Assyrian representative group ?

It was the only independent elected Assyrian Party during the Irak elections, therefore the Iraqi Goverment and the KRG should work with ADM!!!

The constitution is still in preparation and not yet published I think. Moreover you ar enot logical. You don't want that Niniveh becomes a part of Kurdistan,but you want that Niniveh will be inscribed in Kurdish COnstitution. But for being absolutely independant from Kurds, you should make write your ASSYRIAN area in IRAQI constitution, not in another Federal region's one that not concern you.

In short, if Niniveh need Kurdish help, saety and support, it should accept Kurdish conditions. If Niniveh is an separated federal region, then Christians should express their wish in Baghdad.

Nineveh to become a part of Kurdistan?... I wish for assyrians to have their own automous area, but this aint relaistic now, so I go for the ADM police of having an administrative Unit in the Nineveh Plains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineveh_plains

[Diri]

This discussion is getting VERY old and Rumtaya, do you think I am stupid or something?

Don't you think I know what "Chaldean" REALLY means?

Or do you just PURPOSELY ignore the point I was making: "Chaldean" is ONE of the official ethnic minorities of Iraq... It is mentioned by name - and that is why they are not considered to be "Assyrian"...

Get it?

Please say you do... Because I am not going to discuss this issue anymore than what it's worth... And I'm very tired of discussing this because we always end up with the same story... And you are very thankful and whatever and Kurds are just ignorant barbars who threw out Assyrians from their homes and now "the Assyrians are just returning back to their lands"... Blah blah blah...

Nobody said the Assyrians will get autonomy in Duhok province... That is as likely as an Assyrian President of Iraq...

[Vladimir]

You mean the Arameans.

[Sirwan]

You mean the Arameans.

Yeah, he means the Arameans. Teymur sacked Baghdad and pushed them to flee to Kurdistan.

[Piling]

I was discussing the Assyrian autonomous area within the KRG, the KRG is stating that Assyrians should join its boundaries to by then they will be givin autonomy in the Nineveh Plains and western dohuk.

Yeah they would like for it would be the easier way for them. But these integration will happen only if people accept it by referendum. If there is a general uprising against the KRG, be sure that they won't waste time and Peshmergas 's lives for Niniveh...

The Assyrian disunited is beeing ongoing suppourted throw the KDP which seeks to make the "christians" to become Kurdistani Christians.

Well your position si not clear. If you oncly claim Niniveh territory, then christian population in Duhok, Zakho, Shaqlawa, Suleymanieh, etc. will stay in Kurdistan Region. Then of course, they will be "Kurdistan christians", which does not mean "Kurdish christians", but just give us a full citizenship. You can't rpetend to represent them and defend them from Niniveh. I mean if you want a complete independance from Kurdistan, then people within Kurdistan is not your buiseness anymore, whatever they are and chose to be called.

How do you know all those dont care about Nineveh?..How do you know those who left baghdad want to return back to it?

Because they tell it. Some of them had a nice economical situation on Baghdad, mais were used to live in a big city. So the adaptation is hard... We see it already in Duhok and villages : christian refugees hope to come back in their own house in Bagdad or going to Western countries, but a few of them want to stay in Kurdistan, for different reasons, and one fo them is they are jobless. The other is that life in Kurdistan is very expansive. Some others also because they are Baghdadi for many generations, and they miss their place.

In Niniveh, if they have economical opportunities and could practice their job, some will stay, of course. But not all, I guess it.

Assyrian baathis very limited, you let it sound as every assyrian who resided in baghdad was a baathist!!! Which Christian places in Kurdistan?... You mean christian places in Assyria?...

Not all christians, I talk about Assyrian authorities in Baghdad, and southern cities, especially religious authorities.
Moreover you can call Kurdistan Region "Assyria" if you like, but if you obtain Niniveh, and need the help of Kurds for keeping it safe, I suppose you should drop your territorial pretention on Hewlêr and other places...

Have you followed the assyrian new year parade in nohadra (dohuk)? more then 60 000 people celebrating it and more would have come, but there werent enough ressources to do so.

Well precisely, all Christian or Assyrian feasts happen within KRG, now, under the protection of these Peshmergas that you deprise.... You should have more respect for people who risk their life for Assyrians, while many Assyrians are in safety in Europa or USA.

Which Christians? why do you name yezedis diffrent they are Kurds. but still which Christians do you mean?.

Well because I am realistic. When I say Christians I mean Assyrian, Chadeans, Syriac and so on, but Armenians also. Another point is that how you call a man who lived in Baghdad all his life until now and does not speak Syriac, but Arab ? How do you call a Chrstian of Mosul, like Paulos Rahho who considered himself as an Arab ? In that case the only difference with other Iraqi is their religion.

And for Yezidis it is because their religion is important in their identity. Some of them are not even Kurd but Arabs, and in any case, they are more Yezidis than Kurd, because they were persecuted by Musulims before. And another fact : Sinjar and Sheikhan are Yezidi places also, Niniveh is not a pure Assyrian region, but mixed, so you should take that in account.

It was the only independent elected Assyrian Party during the Irak elections, therefore the Iraqi Goverment and the KRG should work with ADM!!!

For Niniveh perhaps, but within Kurdistan Region the winner party was the Kurdish List, and the representatives of Assyrian-Chaldeans are their own MPs in Kurdish Parliament, from the KDP of from Assyrian parties.

I wish for assyrians to have their own automous area, but this aint relaistic now, so I go for the ADM police of having an administrative Unit in the Nineveh Plains

So if I had understood, you want to depend on Baghdad and not on KRG. OK. Then negociate with Baghdad directly and don't exige anything from the KRG.

Moreover, I doubt that Baghdad is very happy and ready to make an Assyrian region in Niniveh because of oil and the fertilty of that place. Perhaps Shi'a does not care, but be sure that sunnis will fight it energically.

[Diri]

Sort of "yes" - but at the same time: no, I mean the Chaldeans... Same as those in Ainkawa and other parts of Kurdistan...

They are recognized as a separate group from the Assyrians, who are also mentioned by name (as a separate group)...

In 2003-04, the Nestorian and Chaldean church-leaders tried to agree on a name for their "ethnic group" - they agreed on "Chaldo-Assyrians" - but then new splits cracked, leading to the registration of "Chaldean" and "Assyrian" as two separate groups...


Let me stress a very underestimated fact:

There is VERY little "unity" between Assyrians, Syriacs, Arameans and Chaldeans... These all mostly disagree on church-level - but because of political parties also in some cases are enemies... Such as Beth Nahrin and Zoowa (ADM)...

Despite all this, Kurdish officials have recognized and still do: that all these groups are the same ethnicity (same language, culture, history etc.), but that they belong to different sects/churches...

At least 100% of all Soran, Hewraman, Gorans and Kurmanc, and most Zazas believe in the Kurdish nation... Kurdish identity is formed around culture and history more than anything - and thus unity is "historic", yet among Assyrians, however, division is "historic"... Because they're grown apart into different groups... Kurds have and are still uniting - today more than ever... The gains that Kurds have made the last decade in unity go unmatched by any other stateless people: Palestinians have split more, Assyrians have split more, Turkmen have been split between Pan-Turkists and Pro-Kurdists etc... We're the only people who've made significant improvements in unification and solving internal problems... It all started in 1998 with the agreement between Barzanî and Telebanî... And today: voilà - there's even a strenghtening of ties between KDP, PUK, KDPI, and this one is a shock to most people: PKK - which grew out of the realization of "common enemy, common aim" - "enemy of my enemy is my friend"...

Chaldeans (mostly) are siding with the Kurdistan Regional Government - while Nestorians (mostly) are reluctant to accept Kurdish government. Even if it means Assyrian representation...

The matter is of course far more complex than what I make it out to be - but I draw conclusions based on my personal observations as well as deep rooted and strong-felt interest in studying Assyrian-Kurdish relations...

No matter how this is bent or twisted, one fact remains: Kurds are at an all-time-high, and Assyrians should wisely lean on the Kurds to have some of that rub over on them...

[admin]

Chaldeans (mostly) are siding with the Kurdistan Regional Government - while Nestorians (mostly) are reluctant to accept Kurdish government. Even if it means Assyrian representation...

We should add that within Kurdistan Region, Chaldeans are the majority, while members of Assyrian church are few.

[talsor]

Assyrian constitute some 3 to 5 percent of the Iraqi population and they are decreasing on daily basis . So I do not get why all this fuzzz about an autonomous region for Assyrian . realisticaly speaking it will never happen .

[Londoner]

Assyrian constitute some 3 to 5 percent of the Iraqi population and they are decreasing on daily basis . So I do not get why all this fuzzz about an autonomous region for Assyrian . realisticaly speaking it will never happen .

Let me to leave idealism and speak in the practical interests of Kurds. Christians (Assyrians, Chaldians, Armenians....etc) have a strong voice abroad especially in America. If an autonomous region established for them within or beside Kurdistan they will have to support the security of Kurds as much as they support the security of the christian Region. Becuase any threat against Kurds means the same against them and visa versa. So it is in the interests of Kurds to help such region, as Christian Sanctuary, established inside or beside Kurdistan.

[Rumtaya]

We should add that within Kurdistan Region, Chaldeans are the majority, while members of Assyrian church are few.

They are all members of Assyrian Churches, however the chaldean catholics reside mostly in the Nineveh Plains, whereeas Assyrians like me (Nestorians, or just assyrians of the church of the east) have their places within the Nohadra/Dohuk Governarate.

Regions like Nahla, Sapna, Barwar etc. are all of "Nestorian" Assyrians and the number in that governarate is again INCREASING.

One more thing, the mention of the "chaldean" Name in the Constitution has more religoius background then ethnic one, but also here you have high ranking "chaldeans" within the Assyrian Democratic Movement who stand towards their assyrianism.

Well your position si not clear. If you oncly claim Niniveh territory, then christian population in Duhok, Zakho, Shaqlawa, Suleymanieh, etc. will stay in Kurdistan Region. Then of course, they will be "Kurdistan christians", which does not mean "Kurdish christians", but just give us a full citizenship. You can't rpetend to represent them and defend them from Niniveh. I mean if you want a complete independance from Kurdistan, then people within Kurdistan is not your buiseness anymore, whatever they are and chose to be called.

At the moment there is beeing claimed an ADMINISTRATIVE UNIT within the NINEVEH PLAINS, however Assyrians hold ownership in many parts of the Nohadra/Dohuk Governarate, at the moment it seems that those are within the KRG, however who knows things can change and maybe people will just not know how to write the word democraty, but alos know how to implement it.

Because they tell it. Some of them had a nice economical situation on Baghdad, mais were used to live in a big city. So the adaptation is hard... We see it already in Duhok and villages : christian refugees hope to come back in their own house in Bagdad or going to Western countries, but a few of them want to stay in Kurdistan, for different reasons, and one fo them is they are jobless. The other is that life in Kurdistan is very expansive. Some others also because they are Baghdadi for many generations, and they miss their place.

In Niniveh, if they have economical opportunities and could practice their job, some will stay, of course. But not all, I guess it

They had business, what is wrong with that?... Before the Al Anfal campaing 90% of Assyrian resided in the Ninawa,Nohadra and Arbil governarate (especially in Nohadra), but just as Kurds have been displaced the same happend to Assyrians. Well there are also many Assyrians in Kurdistan (Arbil,Suleimani and Kirkuk province) but the majority of Assyrians have their lands/villages within the ninawa and nohadra governarate.

Not all christians, I talk about Assyrian authorities in Baghdad, and southern cities, especially religious authorities.
Moreover you can call Kurdistan Region "Assyria" if you like, but if you obtain Niniveh, and need the help of Kurds for keeping it safe, I suppose you should drop your territorial pretention on Hewlêr and other places...

No Kurdistan (southern part) is somethingelse then Assyria, there is only one problem to discuss which is Nohadra governarte.

Well precisely, all Christian or Assyrian feasts happen within KRG, now, under the protection of these Peshmergas that you deprise.... You should have more respect for people who risk their life for Assyrians, while many Assyrians are in safety in Europa or USA.

So? Assyrians fought alongside Kurds against Saddam?...They have fought for their "freedom" its not like Assyrians all watched how Kurds were fighting and when saddam was withdrwan they started clapping "ooohhhh thanks kurdish Peshmerga...we have suppourted you throw clapping and watchin".

I dont see the point why people think Assyrians just sit there and watched how Kurds do the "job" and the rest does wait for the moment to be set free from baathism aggression.... IT WAS AND NEVER WILL BE SO....ASSYRIAN HAD ACTIVE ACTS IN FIGHTING SADDAM.

For Niniveh perhaps, but within Kurdistan Region the winner party was the Kurdish List, and the representatives of Assyrian-Chaldeans are their own MPs in Kurdish Parliament, from the KDP of from Assyrian parties.

Wrong ADM strongshold is NOTthe NINEVEH PLAINS, but areas like Nohadra and ARBIL...which lies within the KRG...
You had also the problem, that Assyrians were prevented from Voting...thanks Peshmerga for securing the ballot boxes, probably they did their job to good, which ened in having no ballot baxos in many assyrian areas..

those peshmergas take their job really serious!

[Diri]

Assyrians in Badînan are like Turks in Bulgaria... They have their cultural rights - but they can not try to make Bulgarian land part of Turkey... Same with Assyrians: keep your focus on Nineveh and you may actually GET something... If you keep focusing on land which you will never get, then you may end up getting nothing at all...

[Piling]

[So? Assyrians fought alongside Kurds against Saddam?...They have fought for their "freedom" its not like Assyrians all watched how Kurds were fighting and when saddam was withdrwan they started clapping "ooohhhh thanks kurdish Peshmerga...we have suppourted you throw clapping and watchin".

Christians in Kurdistan fought. But not Assyrians living in Baghdad, Mosul or BassoraH. Most of them are even really anti Kurds.

So I dn't still understand what you want. An indepednant Niniveh or also Arbil and Duhok ?

Moreover, this "puppet" of Sarkis finances 99% of Assyria refugees' support and lodging. Without that "puppet" your compatriots fleeing from Mosul or Bagdad would be in the same bad situation than in Syria or Jordania. So don't spit in the plate of soup, as we say in French. In fact for the moment Assyrians in Kurdistan are more in debt with Kurds than with their "Assyrian brothers" from other countries.

[Rumtaya]

Assyrians in Badînan are like Turks in Bulgaria... They have their cultural rights - but they can not try to make Bulgarian land part of Turkey... Same with Assyrians: keep your focus on Nineveh and you may actually GET something... If you keep focusing on land which you will never get, then you may end up getting nothing at all...

What are Kurds in Arbil then?....

Assyrians of Nohadra hold ownership over many villages and lands, so no we are not guests there! You know its funny, you say keep your focous on Nineveh, actually the KRG is having a focus on that too...huh what should we do?

Christians in Kurdistan fought. But not Assyrians living in Baghdad, Mosul or BassoraH. Most of them are even really anti Kurds.

Those Christians to which you refer, were and are the most patriotic Assyrians on EARTH. Assyrians of Baghdad, mosul and Basra, where before the al anfalg campaing Assyrians of Ninawa, Arbil and Nohadra.

So I dn't still understand what you want. An indepednant Niniveh or also Arbil and Duhok ?

- peace
- jobs
- rights (as indiginous people)
- reclaim lost or occupied villages
- suppourt the federalism
- suppourt the ongoing democritzation process

What Assyrians want, are beside those mentioned above, just to be accepted and left alone.
First Goal is Administrative Units, beside that the reclaim of lost property.

Moreover, this "puppet" of Sarkis finances 99% of Assyria refugees' support and lodging. Without that "puppet" your compatriots fleeing from Mosul or Bagdad would be in the same bad situation than in Syria or Jordania. So don't spit in the plate of soup, as we say in French. In fact for the moment Assyrians in Kurdistan are more in debt with Kurds than with their "Assyrian brothers" from other countries.

Oh, so you think we should kiss the feets of KRG? Huh guess what this is a process of rebuilding a state, its nothing special its just NORMAL.
Sarkis Aghajan, who is that? The guy who runs Ishtar TV, which did not show the Assyrian New Year Parade within the KRG where some 60 000 Assyrian participated, but they showed the NewRuz party?... You want me to trust person like this?

Not everyone is beeing accepted withi the KRG, many Assyrians have been refused suppourt probably because they refused to be KDP members. Oh btw. whoever wants to go study within the KDP controlled areas, must become an KDP member, is that also a process of democraty?

Why isnt the Money handed out to the Assyrian Democratic Movement? It is not money from Mr. Barzanis privat account, but money from oil revenues and western money to rebuild those areas. Should we be thankful and kiss feets, because they give us what does belong to us? My dear Pilling, the Kurds choosed bythemselves to be democratic, which means fairshare for everyone, but what we have is another dicatorship or why would they arrest so many people who write against their way of governing?...

Is someone in french imprisioned when he writes that Mr. Sarkozy is doing his job bad? Hee? Now dont come up with ahhh the KRG just did start and they need to do this ongoing process which might takes some few years more and bla bla bla.

We dont owe anything to anyone.