Grey wolves attacked a Kurdish student

[Diri]

the Turks, obviously only know the French one - and consequently use the word "Ülkücü" ("Country/State supporter")...

You're wrong. French nationalism (the same than American's) focuses on Law and State, you are citizen if you live in Franc and if you respect law and Constitution, whatever your blood could be. The German notion "Volk" concerns ethnic membership, "blood's right" : if you are German's son even borned in Russia as for German of Volga, you are German. Until recent times, even borned in Germany, as many Turks and Kurds, you was not German if your blood wasn't (of course with huge migration and UR evolution, it has changed).

It was the right of soil vs right of blood.

Turkish kemalism mixed in a sad but funny way both notions : You are a Turk by blood and then if you are not Turk by blood, you betray State and Constitution. And if you are borned in Turkey you have to be Turk (except Christians) or have not exist.

The hard job that many reformist as Baskin Oran try to do, is to change the Turkish notion of "nationality".

Well excuse me - but that is not correct...

What you say here:

"You're wrong. French nationalism (the same than American's) focuses on Law and State, you are citizen if you live in Franc and if you respect law and Constitution, whatever your blood could be. The German notion "Volk" concerns ethnic membership, "blood's right" : if you are German's son even borned in Russia as for German of Volga, you are German. Until recent times, even borned in Germany, as many Turks and Kurds, you was not German if your blood wasn't (of course with huge migration and UR evolution, it has changed).

It was the right of soil vs right of blood."

Is the same as I said myself...

Then you say:

"Turkish kemalism mixed in a sad but funny way both notions : You are a Turk by blood and then if you are not Turk by blood, you betray State and Constitution. And if you are borned in Turkey you have to be Turk (except Christians) or have not exist."

Which is wrong... Because anybody can be "Turkish" - since according to Turks, everybody born in Turkey is Turkish... And that is also correct according to Kemalism - that everybody born in Turkey, is Turkish... Which is the exact same as France: Everybody born in France, is French... That is why in Turkey, everybody is considered Turkish, even if they are Kurd, Armenian, Arab, Laz, Assyrian or Greek by blood... They know themselves that huge numbers of their population are of Laz, Greek, Armenian, Arab, Assyrian and Kurdish descent - but they refuse to accept them as Arab/Laz/Assyrian/Armenian/Greek/Kurdish simply because their father/mother/grandfather/grandmother - forefathers in general - were of another ethnicity... Everybody born and raised in Turkey according to Turkish nationalism, is a Turk, and must accept this - and that is also the policy the state system in Turkey pursues...

I simply see that you have misunderstood Turks and their idea of Turkishness - according to them, anybody born in Turkey is Turkish... Ask them - they'll tell you the same... Enlightened Turks will tell you that there are "some Kurds in Wan, Amed and Sirnak - but the rest is all Turkish" - this type of thing is typical to hear from Turks who have some education - but they don't want to exterminate Kurdish ethnicity - they want to exterminate Kurdish identity... Meaning: As long as your Kurdishness only is by blood - you are a Turk anyway and there is no problem... But the moment you speak Kurdish and say you are Kurdish (instead of saying "I am Turkish") - you are in big trouble...

You are in a way right when you say: "And if you are borned in Turkey you have to be Turk (except Christians) or have not exist." - because they don't accept that anybody else lives in Turkey... So if you are a Kurd - you are not supposed to be in Turkey - but in Iran, Syria or Iraq... That is where the rest of those guys are...

Then you say:

"The hard job that many reformist as Baskin Oran try to do, is to change the Turkish notion of "nationality"."

But let's make it clear: According to Turks, everybody born in Turkey is Turkish... (Which is bullshit)

What Oran and other reformists want, is for people to not call themselves "Turkish" - but "Turkiyeli" - meaning= "Somebody from Turkey"... Taking the geographical term "Turkiye" - and adding the suffix "li" means that somebody/something is from this geographic area...

To sum it up: Everybody born in Turkey is Turkish according to Turkish nationalism - since according to them: Only Turks live in Turkey...

Reformists like Oran wish for people of Turkey to call themselves "Turkiyeli" instead of "Turkish" - because as te reformists have come to understand and accept: not everybody born in "Turkiye" is "Türk" - and therefore: it is more correct to call oneself "A person from Turkey" rather than a "Turk" - if you are a Kurd, Armenian, Assyrian, Greek or Arab for example... To not put that (ethnic) difference out in the open - people like Baskin Oran talk of "changing the notion of Turkish nationalism" instead of openly admitting the ethnic diversity of the geographical area known as "Turkey" - they play politically correct and are not prosecuted by the state for their politically in-correct ideas and thoughts...

So - I am right... Because everybody born in Turkey, is like everybody born in France, a citizen of Turkey/France - and therefore "Turkish"/"French"...

Voilà...

[Piling]

mmm But Christian borned in Turkey have a special status of "foreign people", as Greeks for example. They are not allowed to buy some buildings, and have special restrictions and rights : They are "Domestic Foreigners".

a) What does “Domestic foreigners (Turkish citizens)” mean? This term was used in the “Regulation For Protection Against Sabotages” dated December 28, 1988, as it listed which categories were most likely to carry out sabotages.

If this did not mean non-Muslim citizens, then what did it mean? Didn’t the Office of the Prosecutor claim that the term “Turk” was used for citizenship only?

b) What does “of Turkish origin and of Turkish citizenry” mean? This term is used to describe the characteristics of the Deputy Principal to be assigned by the Education Ministry to a foreign or minority private school, as listed in Article 24/2 of the Law Number 625 still in force now.

Once you say “of Turkish citizenry” why do you repeat it by saying “of Turkish origin”? Did not the indictment claim that the term “Turk” was used for citizenry only?

c) What does “Turkish citizen with foreign nationality” mean? This term was used in the Istanbul Administrative Court Number 2 decision, dated April 17, 1996. Whom did the court mean when it used this term? It was our Greek Orthodox citizens.

Didn’t the indictment claim that the term “Turk” was used to indicate citizenship only? Has anybody in this court room or in entire Turkey heard of a more weird “legal” term than this? A person is either a foreigner or a citizen.

d) What does “Foreigners are not permitted to acquire immovable property in Turkey” mean? This sentence is from the Court of Cassation Grand Chamber dated May 8, 1974. Who did the Court of Cassation have in mind while using it? It used it for the administrators of the Balikli Greek Orthodox Hospital Foundation established by our Greek Orthodox citizens.

It is extracted from "türkiyeli notion", in Baskin Oran defence :

http://perso.orange.fr/kurdistannameh/p ... asea-5.htm

There are not Domestic foreigner in France, you are French or not, whatever your religion or your origins. In Turkey you are a Domestic Foreigner if you are a non-muslim (but Alevis are not recognized as non-muslim).


And concerning the right of minorities and other languages, Baskin Oran points precisely French dispositions as a challenge for Turks : when Kurds have the same status than Corsica, for example, it would be a great step for the country :

http://perso.orange.fr/kurdistannameh/p ... asea-3.htm


Moreover, all his writings have to be red, it is very interesting.

[Diri]

Thanks for the links

But yeah - the only people who are not "Türk" in Turkiye are Christians...

Everybody else, who has "Islam" written in their Identification Card is a "Türk"... Kurd, Laz, Greek, Armenian or whatever - as long as they are muslim by name...

Erdogan is also using that "Turkiyeli" word... He calls himself that instead of saying "Ben türküm"...

[Shevin]

i would prefer that in my card is written christian instead of türk >_> poor north kurds...are not even allowed to say i'm a kurd and proud of it

[zurderer]

But yeah - the only people who are not "Türk" in Turkiye are Christians...

wrong, there are christian turks too. Greek and armenian situation is different, they called minority with lousane agreement. If a turk or kurd convert christianity, they would be still become turk.

Diri is also right, Turkish nationalism comes from france, Infact they learnt nationalism from france. Germany did not influenced turkish nationalist(young ottomans, and young turks), but france. They fleed and stayed at france, not germany.

[UE_kurdophile]

In Turkey you are a Domestic Foreigner if you are a non-muslim (but Alevis are not recognized as non-muslim).

Excuse me Piling, probably I didn't understand your sentence, but if Alevis are NOt recognized as NON-muslim, you mean they are recognised as muslims,don't you? but actually they are muslims, (even if they are different from the others), so I don't see the point, can you explain? I am a bit slow to understand things sometimes
What kind of legal restrictions do they have?

[Piling]

Much Alevis want to have an official status separated from Sunnis, for a lot of them (at least Kurdish ALevis) don't recognize themselves as Muslims, not even as Shiites, and don't want to be ruled by Diyanet. But on their identity card, they are designed as muslims.


Alevism is issued from sunni sufism and shi'a mixed with many older element like cult of fire and Light. Their identity is complex : some are Turks, some others Kurds, and some others want to be only Zaza. SOme claim they are Muslims fearing the reprisals of Sunni (there had been massacres of Alevis, for example in 1978). Some claim to have the right to be independant of Official Muslim Office, and ruled themselves, not by state.

It is the same thing for Nusairi, they rather often to state themselves as Christians on their papers (and even marry with Christians than to be assimilated with Sunnis).

[Piling]

Germany did not influenced turkish nationalist(young ottomans, and young turks), but france. They fleed and stayed at france, not germany.

It is more complicated. Turkish nationalism melt French notion of nationality with German notion "Volk's theory" (and we add the fact that Turkish Constitution was inspired by Italian Mussolinian's one at the beginning.

For example if someone born in Turkey, even if his parents are not Turk, will he become authomatically Turk ? In France, it is the case, and in Germany not. That the difference, between citizen by blood and citizen by birthplace.

[zurderer]

For example if someone born in Turkey, even if his parents are not Turk, will he become authomatically Turk ?

Yes, Infact some ultranationalist hate this, they say jews from israel comes and give birth at south-east Turkey.(They suspect great israel.

There is only a racist group(Follower of Nihal Atsız) who hate every other race, including bosniaks, but that is all. Becoming Turk has no relation with blood.

Much Alevis want to have an official status separated from Sunnis, for a lot of them (at least Kurdish ALevis) don't recognize themselves as Muslims,

Like always You talk with your limited knowledge, There is only a small part of alevis who dont recognise themself as muslim. Infact this is discussed and refused by alevis.

Alevism is issued from sunni sufism

Alevism have no connection with sufism.

And They dont want to be called as minority.(As EU accepted)

[Piling]

Historically Alevism was issued from the Brootherhood of Safaviyya, which was Sunni in 13th century, and became Shiite with Haydar, under Akkoyunlu's rule. It is only with Shah Ismaïl that there was a reform which change the Safaviyya ghazi as a "ghulat" brotherhood.

http://perso.orange.fr/kurdistannameh/h ... intro2.htm

and I advice you to read :

AMORETTI, B.S. : Pre-Safavid Religious Topography, THE CAMBRIDGE HISTORY OF IRAN, vol: 6, Cambridge, 1993.

and :

BROWNE, Edward G. : "Notes on an Apparently Unique Manuscript History of the Safawi Dynasty of Persia", JOURNAL OF THE ROYAL ASIATIC SOCIETY, (1921), pp.395-418.


And I precisely said that Alevis' identity is complex and that I talked about Kurdish Alevis, especially from Marash and Dersim who didn't want to be considered as Muslims. Concerning Turkish Alevis, I don't know a lot, only some which were PKK members with Kurds !

[Shadow]

Piling... "Gurg" is not Kurdish... "Gur" is Kurdish... "Gurg" is Persian... Those Kurds who say "Gurg" have been influenced by Persian...

It is Gur...

Exactly, in Middle Persian was "Wolf" also "Gurg". In Zazaki is "Wolf" = Verg. The turkish word "kurt" is "gur" very near. Have the turks boring it of the persians? Hmm...

[Diri]

Piling... "Gurg" is not Kurdish... "Gur" is Kurdish... "Gurg" is Persian... Those Kurds who say "Gurg" have been influenced by Persian...

It is Gur...

Exactly, in Middle Persian was "Wolf" also "Gurg". In Zazaki is "Wolf" = Verg. The turkish word "kurt" is "gur" very near. Have the turks boring it of the persians? Hmm...

Hmmm... Interesting question...

But I think wolf in Persian and in Turkish are pronounced very differently:

Persian (in English pronounciation) :

"Gorg"

Turkish (in English pronounciation) :

"Kourt"