Hypothetical Question for Kurdish People

[Azamat]

@Djembe
But as this will most likely lead to war, federalism with Kurdish autonomy is for now probably the most achievable and practical solution. Though I doubt it will be like anything we're seeing today in Southern Kurdistan.

Azamet

OK, let us go back to the subject. In my opinion re-establishing second republic is the best solution for both Turkish and Kurdish side. Let us continue to be 'hypothetical' and what type of federalism we are talking about. As a strong supporter of Kurdish cultural, political rights within Turkey, here is my parameters.

1 - Education in Kurdish is a must. My concern is that, if a Kurdish child speaks only Kurdish language, that would be an issue in terms of integration, higher education and professionally. I chosen to live in Canada, my daughter is 4 years old, she speaks Turkish, English and some French, but to me in terms of her future English and French is priority. I had so much difficulty when I migrated to Canada due to lack of language skills, and even though having a degree, it was extremely difficult to settle and integrate to the society. I am all for Kurdish Education as a right for Kurdish people but at the same time, there should be mandatory courses for Kurdish children to learn the Turkish language. I am assuming you are a parent living in Europe or N. America. Don't you agree that the language is the key to integrate new generations to the society.

First off, I don't have any children, but I'm pleased of you assuming so!
Back the subject now. Multilinguistic education can easily be integrated into the system, so I don't think this will be such of a concern. When Kurds and Turks share the same country, it is a requirement that they adapt to how the country keeps functioning.

2. Cultural: There must be absolutely now restriction in terms of cultural life from having TV, Radio, newspaper etc. There are already booming private TV network in Turkey and I don't see any issue to have such freedom in media.

I agree, but my concern is that both Turkish and Kurdish media will have a hard time eliminating any nationalist sentiment from their publications, as this is unacceptable in a multi-ethnic federation.

3. Government Services: Government services must have Kurdish when deliver the government services. Meaning if a Turkish living in Hakkari he or she should have all the services in Turkish, if a Kurd living in Edirne, he or she should receive all the services in Kurdish Language. De-centralization should re-organize all the government services and local autonomy should be established. Meaning key services like education, health, commercial, licencing, local security, local police, traffic should be under local government authority.

That seems ideal, but the system probably won't be so flexible as you put it. Turkish officials would have to learn Kurdish, etc. I was thinking of a border seperating a Turkish and Kurdish region, which will be transparent in government services, as they gradually adapt to the region's inhabitants(as long as this will not provoke any nationalist sentiment).

4. Local governments must have authority to tax.

As long as it's not excessive.

5. Constitution: There should not be any reference to ethnicity when define citizenship and nationality.

This requires that any kind of ethnic superiority is eliminated from the country.

What else?

We'll discuss this tomorrow. I'm off to sleep now.

[ideas]

Welcome to step four and five everyone!

4. Step four, Azamat argues with his European Turk for a while to establish that he does not agree with him and his nationalism stands.
5 Step five Azamat agrees with the European Turk as 'his statements make sense'

As you can see above, my predictions have come true.

[ideas]

On page 9 we see Azamat saying the following:-

I'm a yearner for Kurdish independence after all.

As you can see he has been claiming that he is a Kurdish nationalist, and that non-independence is out of the question. This reflects my accusation as I stated: Step one, register under the name Azamat and establish that I'm a Kurdish nationalist, that happens to be Zaza but can't speak any Kurdish dialect.

When then moved onto step four with I stated: Step four, Azamat argues with his European Turk for a while to establish that he does not agree with him and his nationalism stands. and that is reflected above, if you care to read you will notice that Azamats nationalistic view of no compromise on independence has changed to:

When Kurds and Turks share the same country, it is a requirement that they adapt to how the country keeps functioning.

Let's go back to my accusations now:-

I don't understand why all the drama is needed, it's a simple check and that's all, and I would not call you a Jash, as I honestly don't believe your a Kurd at all the way I see it this is what's happening:-

1. Step one, register under the name Azamat and establish that I'm a Kurdish nationalist, that happens to be Zaza but can't speak any Kurdish dialect.
2. Step two, wait for a while for everyone to understand that I'm a nationalist.
3. Step three create another account, a supposedly European Turk, the characteristics of these account would be 'respectful' and 'not racist'
4. Step four, Azamat argues with his European Turk for a while to establish that he does not agree with him and his nationalism stands.
5 Step five Azamat agrees with the European Turk as 'his statements make sense'

All the above is executed to try and convince the naive member that would be reading this as if a Nationalist like Azamat suddenly agrees with this friendly Turk, maybe Turks are not that bad?

These are my reasons, you don't have to agree with them, and maybe their not true, but I will only check to make sure.

Now if we look on other threads, we can see some more of the slimy Turks work, for example he has been trieng to get Kurds against each other, as seen on the peshmerga forum where he claimed that the Peshmerga in southern Kurdistan are jash and puppets, I mean what kind of Kurd would disrespect the peshmerga like that?

The 'Kurdish army', which is actually no more than a semi-internal part of the Iraqi military, is under control of puppets, loyal to Iraq and America. Those are the real jash, in my opinion.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5058&p=53658#p53658

As you can see he claims peshmerga is loyal to Iraq, and among other of his naive statements regarding Kurdish politics in Iraq, which surprisingly (sarcasm) matches the knowledge of his alter ego mr.Turk in regards to Iraqi and Kurdish politics.

Was I right?

[Djembe]

Back the subject now. Multilinguistic education can easily be integrated into the system, so I don't think this will be such of a concern. When Kurds and Turks share the same country, it is a requirement that they adapt to how the country keeps functioning.

I think multilingualism in education is very easy especially when it starts very early. I have been trying to learn English for last 10 years, still bad, my daughter learn 2.5 languages in 4 years. lol.

One of the problem with both Turkish and Kurdish people I found, I think this is a characteristics of being Middle eastern, we are not that open minded. We do not accept different culture easily. I found both Turkish and Kurdish and in General middle eastern acceptance of for example different race, African, Asian are not that easy. In middle east, Kurdish people, Turkish, Persian, Arabs we don't get along. We are very angry and not very open to each other. I might be wrong on this. Anyway, being Turkish, I am very disappointed that the need of language freedom for Kurdish people is overlooked and ignored by Turkish population. They see this as an issue and they do no realize having multiple speaking language is actually a bridge. In Canada, having French and English, there is not issue, actually diversity makes things better.

I agree, but my concern is that both Turkish and Kurdish media will have a hard time eliminating any nationalist sentiment from their publications, as this is unacceptable in a multi-ethnic federation.

I appreciate that you are fair by pointing out both Turkish and Kurdish media about nationalist sentiment. It is possible, but I also think that like Turkish, Kurdish people are diverse in ideology too. We have religious Kurdish, unpolitical Kurdish, liberal Kurdish, left leaning Kurdish, I think the will also balance on those nationalist sentiment. I mean at least that is what I am wishing.

That seems ideal, but the system probably won't be so flexible as you put it. Turkish officials would have to learn Kurdish, etc. I was thinking of a border seperating a Turkish and Kurdish region, which will be transparent in government services, as they gradually adapt to the region's inhabitants(as long as this will not provoke any nationalist sentiment).

Well I disagree on your concern that Turkish officials being have to learn Kurdish. I think all the government offices would hire bilingual Kurdish or Kurdish speaking government workers. In Canada, one of the requirement for being Government worker is to be bilingual.

As long as it's not excessive.

Oh, aren't you right wing, fiscal conservative? lol. I bring up tax issue because, the local government needs to fund all the services. I mean if they have responsibility for delivering these services, they should have say on tax as well. This way, they should not depend on central government.

This requires that any kind of ethnic superiority is eliminated from the country.

That is definitely something Turkish people must give in.

Thanks for your comments by the way.

[Azamat]

I'm not interpositioning New Corduene in here at all. My attempt to use your frame of reference to put it into perspective seems to have failed, as your inference has failed again

Just becuase you say it has failed, doesn't mean it has. You are going over-board with this, and nothing you say will change my mind, I unlike you have not put my nationalism (for the same of argument let's say your a Kurd, even though your not) up for negotiation

It's what you define as 'nationalism'. My views have not changed at all; a realistic and rational approach to the issue is what I have been maintaining from the start. It's only my heart that yearns for independence.

and the fact that you make statements like 'My views are changeable' and my previous posts are out-dated just shows that my accusations are true.

Does that statement immediately apply to the Kurdish cause? Nowhere did I specify it's function. I could've equally been referring to things like Islam.

You have insulted several members here, and then think that you can get away with it by trieng to evade the ultimatum

What you have perceived as my 'ultimatum' is an artificial idea created by your selective and single-minded perception. Once you'll approach it from the intentional context, which is entirely rational, you'll see that my statements are not insulting, but merely analytical.

If someone called me a Turk I would not be insulted, or at least I would not use that as the base of my argument.

The base of my argument is that you're attempting to exclude me from this nation.

[ideas]

My last reply to you Mr.Turk(azamat) is posted above, it's detailed and I will not waste time on this anymore.

[Azamat]

@Djembe

About the tax issue; I was not sure about it's function. It's widely known that corruption is an issue in Turkey, and for that reason I stated it shouldn't be excessive. I'm not a right-wing conservatist at all, lol. I'm a technocratic socialist.

[ideas]

Djembe/azamat, talk for yourself, we have no problem with giving these basic rights to our minorities.

Kurdish constitution:-

Article 5:
The people of the Kurdistan Region are composed of Kurds, Turkmens, Arabs, Chaldo-Assyrian-Syriacs, Armenians and others who are citizens of Kurdistan.

Article 14:
First: Kurdish and Arabic shall be the two official languages of the Kurdistan Region. This Constitution guarantees the right of the citizens of the Kurdistan Region to educate their children in their mother tongue, including Turkmen, Assyrian, and Armenian, in the government’s educational institutions and in accordance with pedagogical guidelines.

Second: Along with Kurdish and Arabic, Turkmen and Assyrian shall be official languages in administrative districts that are densely populated by speakers of Turkmen and Assyrian. This shall be regulated by law.

Article 35
This Constitution guarantees autonomy to the Turkmen, Arabs and Chaldo-Assyrian-Syriacs wherever they represent a majority of the population. This shall be regulated by law.

We have already recognised every ethnic group in our constitution and given them the rights to educate their kids in their own language in state funded schools! all this without any war, so please don't put us on the same level as you Turks.

[Djembe]

Hey Azamet

I am very sorry what you are going through. Well, at least ideas did not accuse me that I am not my original national (Turkish) lol, so far he did not object that I am not 'turk' enough, lol. I am lucky that there is no question that I am a 'turkish' and I am very good Turkish.

I am very impressed with the way you engage with me. While I admire the qualities you have in terms to have a dialog with me (Turk), I am very sorry that fellow kurdish contributor question your honesty about your identity and your kurdishness.

I think you did enough and this will go forever to convince 'ideas', seem like he is very sure. Just move on. You don't have to please everyone about your values in terms of your Kurdish nationalism.

[Djembe]

Azamet

So my hypothetical questions continue.

Let us Northern Kurdistan is determined to have independence. How is it going to happen? First I want to examine the legal option.

There is no constitutional rule about i.e. how to get independence from Turkey. Currently that can't happen. There needs to be a constitutional amendments for possible referendum. For this a political group to have 330 members out of 550 in order to propose constitutional amendment for referendum. And such referendum, there needs to be 50+ vote. This is not going to happen any time soon.

See we are doing this hypothetical thinking, let us assume there is a party called We-want-to-give-Kurdish-people-their-wish-Party and there is a party called 'We-want-to-have-a-pure-Turkish-society-so-Kurdish-people-can-go party. Both party had a coalition for such constitution amendment and now we will go referendum. But there are a few issues:

Who is going to vote? All the people in Turkey? Or only Kurdish people? If only Kurdish people, how do we determine who is Kurdish? There is not such thing as ethnicity in the national IDs. Do Kurdish people who live in west vote? Do Kurdish people who live in east vote only?

What is the qualified percentage. I mean if it is only simple majority which is 50 percent? Or it is like 2/3 or 3/4? Do we have referendum based on provinces in Turkey. Meaning for example if Hakkari vote 51 percent for independence, they will be independent. But if Mardin vote for 49 percent for independence, they will not get independence. But both is questionable as almost half either wants or does not want independence. Would it be fair to have the qualified vote to be i.e. 75 percent?

What happens to the Kurdish people who are still living in Turkey after separation. Should they go to Kurdistan which was newly established? Or if they want to stay in Turkey, they can stay. But, increasing tension between Turkish and Kurdish groups, would these Kurdish people want to live in Turkey. I mean I imagine many people would have lots of issues, like selling their business, house. What if mixed families. So they should have choice to reside in Turkey or new Kurdistan.


One other option would be if UN involve. But that is only case if there is already border separated federal nation. That is why I think when BDP says they are happy with federal state, many have a suspicion that BDP is kind of having hidden agenda like they are satisfied with the federal autonomy but actually it is hidden agenda that federal state is only a step towards complete independence.

These are legal and political perspective. And there is another dimension on this which is conflict between two people. Issues are:

Where is the border?
What happens to Kurdish living in West and Turkish living in Kurdistan.

That is very tricky problem as we can see it in Israel and Palestine conflict.

Turkey is not going to let the land go easily. And they have big military.

So. If there is a conflict. I see great human tragedy especially Kurdish side. There are more Kurdish living in West than Turkish living in Kurdistan. So, as ideas mentioned that there would be uprising, yeah but Turks will have uprising too. Who is stronger? I am hoping we are not going to argue that 'my father can beat your father argument here'. The issue would be great tragedy of Kurdish people living in west. Plus, strong army vs Kurdish rebels. Many compare Kurdish uprising with Arab spring, but is that the case.

Egypt. There were Egyptians on Egyptian government. In Libya, was there any ethnic issue? I am not sure but the problem is more like tribal. Correct me if I am wrong. Yemen was ideological. Syria maybe comparable. Or what is comparable scenario. Ivory Coast? Yugoslavia. Turkey is not already divided by border. Or maybe Sudan would be good example?

I don't know what do you think?

Ideas, mentioned before that my post is a scare tactic. I assure you that, that is not the case. I just want to predict what could happen with 'what if'. In social science we can't make an experiment in lab, we have to 'make assumptions' and 'ask hypothetical questions' to predict what could happen. I want to have open discussion on this. Can you address on my points and if you have more please post, I welcome the challenge.

[Djembe]

Djembe/azamat, talk for yourself, we have no problem with giving these basic rights to our minorities.

Ideas. I think Southern Kurdistan should be commended for such fairness in constitution. It is great example. Turkey should be ashamed themselves claiming that they are the best democratic and secular nation in Middle east while failing behind Southern Kurdistan in terms of basic rights for minorities.

[ideas]

Who is going to vote? All the people in Turkey? Or only Kurdish people? If only Kurdish people, how do we determine who is Kurdish? There is not such thing as ethnicity in the national IDs. Do Kurdish people who live in west vote? Do Kurdish people who live in east vote only?

It's not the case of who will vote, rather where the vote will take place, so if for example one the provinces where the vote takes place is Mardin, then everyone in Mardin will vote becuase it will affect all of them (i.e. Kurd, Arab, Christian) and the same applies to any other province that will be affected, and if Kurds in the west decide to return, they are also free to do so.

What is the qualified percentage. I mean if it is only simple majority which is 50 percent? Or it is like 2/3 or 3/4? Do we have referendum based on provinces in Turkey. Meaning for example if Hakkari vote 51 percent for independence, they will be independent. But if Mardin vote for 49 percent for independence, they will not get independence. But both is questionable as almost half either wants or does not want independence. Would it be fair to have the qualified vote to be i.e. 75 percent?

No 75% is not fair, why should 60% suffer for 40%? in an ideal situation it's 50%+1 meaning if 50% of the population + one vote say yes, then it should go through, if however 49% say yes, well that's just tough I suppose.

What happens to the Kurdish people who are still living in Turkey after separation. Should they go to Kurdistan which was newly established? Or if they want to stay in Turkey, they can stay. But, increasing tension between Turkish and Kurdish groups, would these Kurdish people want to live in Turkey. I mean I imagine many people would have lots of issues, like selling their business, house. What if mixed families. So they should have choice to reside in Turkey or new Kurdistan.

That is up to to the Turkish people and government, and I think that you should determine that based on how long they've been living in western Turkey and how much they've mixed, also after a peaceful separation, who say's we will be enemies? look at Southern Kurdistan, there are 50,000 Turks living and working there, without any problems, so I believe that even in the case of separation we can start a fresh start.

One other option would be if UN involve. But that is only case if there is already border separated federal nation. That is why I think when BDP says they are happy with federal state, many have a suspicion that BDP is kind of having hidden agenda like they are satisfied with the federal autonomy but actually it is hidden agenda that federal state is only a step towards complete independence.

Isn't that their right?

Where is the border?

That will be determined via a vote on who want's to join a future state.

What happens to Kurdish living in West and Turkish living in Kurdistan.

Stay if they chose, no one should be forced out.

That is very tricky problem as we can see it in Israel and Palestine conflict.

Israel and Palestine are of two different religions which just makes it worse, our issue is much more easier if the Turks are willing to finish it.

Turkey is not going to let the land go easily. And they have big military.

No, well if turkey decides to continue on the military path the issue will brag on, an eventually the Kurdish population will catch up to the Turkish one (Kurds have a high birth rate) and then the issue will just explode and god knows how much land you will lose then.

So. If there is a conflict. I see great human tragedy especially Kurdish side. There are more Kurdish living in West than Turkish living in Kurdistan. So, as ideas mentioned that there would be uprising, yeah but Turks will have uprising too. Who is stronger? I am hoping we are not going to argue that 'my father can beat your father argument here'. The issue would be great tragedy of Kurdish people living in west. Plus, strong army vs Kurdish rebels. Many compare Kurdish uprising with Arab spring, but is that the case.

If there is an uprising on both sides, that is no longer an uprising it's actually a civil war! and how long do you think it will last? what will happen to Turkeys image? a civil war in western Turkey will be a blow to Turkey not so much us, our interests are found in the east. There are other issues that you haven't taken into consideration, for example a large scale issue in Turkey will also lead onto issues in Cyprus, and a civil war in the west will attract the attention Cyprus and depending on how brutal the army is to the people, the public opinion in the west and america will force their governments to act becuase don't forget after all like you said it's ''people" vs "army"

[Djembe]

No 75% is not fair, why should 60% suffer for 40%? in an ideal situation it's 50%+1 meaning if 50% of the population + one vote say yes, then it should go through, if however 49% say yes, well that's just tough I suppose.

Ideas

simple majority and super majority and two thirds majority are applied depending on the situation. If there is a crucial issues of the people, simple majority may not cut it. Most constitution changes require majority to be more than simple majority. For example, the Kurdistan constitution says

The Parliament shall practice the following exclusive powers:
First: Decide on the crucial issues of the people of Kurdistan Region-Iraq.
Second: Approve the proposal to amend the Kurdistan Region Constitution by a two-thirds majority of its members on the condition that the amendment proposal would not take away from the fundamental rights and liberties stipulated herein.
....

First: The Parliament may dissolve itself with the concurrence of two-thirds majority of its members.

and some cases even more, absolute majority is needed.

Tenth: Declare a state of emergency in cases of war, occupation, rebellion, anarchy, natural disasters, spread of epidemics, or any other states of emergency provided the first period shall be for not more than one month. Further, the subsequent extensions, with the consent of an absolute majority of members of Parliament, may be for a period not exceeding three months for each. Special provisions of states of emergency shall be regulated by law.

....

First: The Kurdistan Region President and the Council of Ministers altogether, or half the number of members of Parliament, may propose amending this Constitution, provided the amendment shall not affect the safety of the Republican Parliamentary Democratic system of the Kurdistan Region and the unity of its land.

Second: The Parliament of Kurdistan-Iraq may approve the amendment by a two-thirds majority of its members.

Most of the constitution changes may require two-third majority and independence of a nation from a country is not a simple tax vote. Such important issue like separating a nation from simple majority is questionable.

Based on current election voting in Turkey there are only following provinces has simple majority (50+)


Diyarbakir
Batman
Mardin
Sirnak
Hakkari

Majority of Kurdish people will still be part of Turkey even there is a referendum based on assumption that the simple majority is requirement for support.

In France

ON AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION

Article 89.

The President of the Republic, on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, and Members of Parliament alike shall have the right to initiate amendments to the Constitution.

A Government or a Private Member’s Bill to amend the Constitution must be considered within the time limits set down in the third paragraph of article 42 and be passed by the two Houses in identical terms. The amendment shall take effect after approval by referendum.

However, a Government Bill to amend the Constitution shall not be submitted to referendum where the President of the Republic decides to submit it to Parliament convened in Congress; the Government Bill to amend the Constitution shall then be approved only if it is passed by a three-fifths majority of the votes cast. The Bureau of the Congress shall be that of the National Assembly.

No amendment procedure shall be commenced or continued where the integrity of national territory is placed in jeopardy.

The republican form of government shall not be the object of any amendment.

Simple majority on such a important vote is questionable. What do you think?

[Djembe]

It's not the case of who will vote, rather where the vote will take place, so if for example one the provinces where the vote takes place is Mardin, then everyone in Mardin will vote becuase it will affect all of them (i.e. Kurd, Arab, Christian) and the same applies to any other province that will be affected, and if Kurds in the west decide to return, they are also free to do so.

Agreement.

[Djembe]

Isn't that their right?

Legally yeah. People can have any political advocacy they want. Political ethic. Well, it is questionable. I mean there is a political party that has hidden agenda, just because of convenience they do not reveal their true intention. Of course, they can do it, but think about it from Turkish side. If I knew that BDP is doing 'takkiye', 'acting', I will not trust with any political engagement with them. Why should I engage with a political group that has hidden agenda and hiding the intention and abusing the political process.