Hypothetical Question for Kurdish People

[New Corduene]

Based on current election voting in Turkey there are only following provinces has simple majority (50+)


Diyarbakir
Batman
Mardin
Sirnak
Hakkari

Without taking part in the discussion itself, allow me to correct you.
Just because the majority of only these mentioned provinces voted for BDP doesn't mean that Kurds in the other cities will not vote for independence, given the chance that is!

[Djembe]

No, well if turkey decides to continue on the military path the issue will brag on, an eventually the Kurdish population will catch up to the Turkish one (Kurds have a high birth rate) and then the issue will just explode and god knows how much land you will lose then.

Well, some Kurdish continue to on military path, i.e. PKK. I mean you have 32 members in the parliament, and you have a platform to work on the issue. This is more like a chicken and egg story as who started first, but the reason PKK existed because the claim that lack of Kurdish rights and representation. We still do not have Kurdish rights, but representation exist, so PKK must stop its fight.

For your high birth rate point, I am somehow agree, but at the same time, this is not simple 'the numbers'. Quantitative vs Qualitative approach.

Increased wealth, being able to live in Turkey is attractive to many Kurdish people. Not every Kurdish is nationalist. Not every Kurdish is voting BDP for independence. If we assume there are 25 percent Kurdish people and only 6 percent voted for BDP. That means majority of Kurdish did not vote for BDP. I also question from this 6 percent, what percentage is for independence? What percentage is only voting for BDP either more democratic rights, or autonomy. So, your high birth rate is very simplistic view and you are ignoring qualitative realities.

Pop culture. A new generation of Kurdish/Turkish people becoming less political. Most of the new generation have totally different priorities than 'Kurdish independence. Are you sure, the new generations, even though numbers go up, is more motivated for independence? I mean to many iPhone, Cars, pop music maybe more important.

I am wondering what percentage of Kurdish population

- Cares about Kurdish independence
- Cares about iPhone, education, job, buying house
- Cares about cultural and democratic rights within Turkey
- Cares about autonomy within Turkey
- Cares about the prospect of possibility of part of being EU with Turkey

[Djembe]

Without taking part in the discussion itself, allow me to correct you.
Just because the majority of only these mentioned provinces voted for BDP doesn't mean that Kurds in the other cities will not vote for independence, given the chance that is!

But corduene. If a Kurdish residing in Istanbul vote for independence, that is not going to be counted for Diyarbakir. And you should appreciate that most likely Istanbul will vote against independence. If the based of the voting is provincial borders. That means each province will be its own.

I am not sure how this referendum should be.

[Djembe]

Corduene

Thanks for the comments btw. Are you suggesting that referendum should be done only specific provinces, also, Kurdish residing in other cities should be able to vote for questioned provinces. That is not fair to basic principle of democratic election. If a Kurdish is not living in Diyarbakir, he or she should not vote for Diyarbakir's independence.

[Djembe]

In possible scenario, there are actually a few question and one referendum question may not suffice...

1. Should there be independence?

2. If there should be independence, who, what geographic entity to get independent. Provinces, or how to define border?

[Djembe]

If someone called me a Turk I would not be insulted, or at least I would not use that as the base of my argument. I slammed you for being a Turk that pretend to be a Kurd to spread propaganda, otherwise we've had Turks here before and I've been fine with it.

I want to clarify something here. I do not think Azamet is insulted because of 'he was called a Turk'. He was insulted because your disqualification of him, being 'kurd'. Just wanted to acknowledge that.

[alan131210]

No, actually it is your concern. With independent agenda and uniting Kurdistan, not only Turkey, you will have to face against Iran, Syria and Iraq. Southern Kurdistan only exist due to Iraqi occupation. I doubt you will have similar status when USA is gone and the power shifts in Iraq and Syria.

If that is the agenda, regional countries will take action and my question is what is your reaction?

says who turkey ? are you forgetting the era of dictatorship has ended or are you still sleeping ? you say kurdistan status is in iraq's constitution , also it say that iraq can not attack surrounding regions or country at any cost . south kurdistan has made it clear they arent in to unite with north kurdistan unless of course the kurds get an autonomy then they decide where they go thats up to them not you not me . and south kurdistan has its own army and if it wants the declare who is going to stop it ??? are forgetting Qaddafi and Assad ?? and they are doing it to their own people and country what chance turkey has against south kurdistan ??? and the line used by you isnt the 1st time all your alikes have used it and its a fail lame attempt to try and convince us , your shit worked with our stupid sheikhs 40-80 years ago , kurds have waken up and they decide for their fate , not a turk arab or persian .

That is an optimistic scenario. There is no guarantee that KRG will be viable, high tech. Also, with the economic and political growth of Turkey, Turkey would be more of attraction place for Kurdish who do not have the same 'nationalist' agenda you have. Can I point out that there are approx 25 percent Kurdish population and BDP gets only 6 percent support nationally.

kurds do not vote for BDP as BDP have no power or money dont get ahead of yourself , a donkey will know this .

You said you have no rush. What they know is known by others too. Now, there is a constitution will be re-written in Turkey. What if Kurdish cultural, democratic, political autonomy accomplished in Turkey, do you think there will be same motivation for Kurdish people for independence. You may have strong Kurdish nationalism, I accept that, but can you speak for everyone else?[/quote]

[Djembe]

Alan

Did you notice that the keyword is Hypothetical?

[New Corduene]

Corduene

Thanks for the comments btw. Are you suggesting that referendum should be done only specific provinces, also, Kurdish residing in other cities should be able to vote for questioned provinces. That is not fair to basic principle of democratic election. If a Kurdish is not living in Diyarbakir, he or she should not vote for Diyarbakir's independence.

As you clarified it yourself, such referendum can be done in several ways.

One is in which the borders of such state is pre-defined by the government/parliament (With Kurdish politicians/MPs approval---maybe!) and then all those who define themselves Kurds (Be it in Amed or Istanbul) will vote for it.

Another case could be, as you stated, for the population of each province to vote for whether their province should separate or not. This case brings many troubles with it. Because as you know, now millions of Kurds live in the western half of present-day Turkey, and a solution must be found for them. Probably some sort of population exchange as happened with Greece back in the day!

I think this subject should not drag on any longer, this hypothetical question is way too unrealistic because the current general Turkish mentality is an extremely monolithic and fascist one that leaves no room for others, especially not for Kurds. Such referendum will not take place in a peaceful manner for another hundred years---if ever that is!

Check this article:

How Turks and Kurds see each other and Kurdish question
http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-247629-how-turks-and-kurds-see-each-other-and-kurdish-question.html

[Djembe]

Check this article:

How Turks and Kurds see each other and Kurdish question
http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-247629-how-turks-and-kurds-see-each-other-and-kurdish-question.html

Thanks for the comment.

Yes. In general, it is very bad for Kurdish people status as a citizen. I can't say anything against their being second, actually some of them being third class citizens in Turkey. However, I have some feedback later on when I have time.

p.s. It is very interesting that these criticism is coming from right/Conservative newspaper, Zaman. I would expect a left to be more assertive on discrimination on Kurdish considering universal leftist values on democratic rights. Unfortunately, Turkey does not have such political voice.

[Djembe]

... this hypothetical question is way too unrealistic because the current general Turkish mentality is an extremely monolithic and fascist one that leaves no room for others, especially not for Kurds.

While I am not supporting the Kurdish independence from Turkey, I have complete agreement general Turkish mentality being extreme close minded, fascist and nationalist. However, another reason for my hypothetical question being unrealistic is that there is no support for Kurdish independence by Kurdish people in Turkey as well.

BDP, though demand less than independence, more like federalism, there is still only 6 percent support and that did percentage did not change that much since last decade. If there are 24 percent Kurdish in Turkey, that means only quarter of Kurdish population in have more nationalist/Independence feelings.

If they talk about independence, their vote could go down. Imagine, you are a Kurd living in west, you have a business, you have a house, your children is going to school, you have worked 20 years for retirement income and there is a possibility that you might have to lose everything. So, independence may scare some of the Kurdish. I appreciate you may be nationalist and wanting your own Kurdish country is your choice. I respect that and that is honorable, but not every Kurdish think same. Don't you think?