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Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehistory

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Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehistory

PostAuthor: Piling » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:05 am

Found in this book : Image

Science, Animals and Nature

People often think it ridiculous that animals can have feelings or that they might possess the ability to reason. We are taught not to anthropomorphize animals, and chided for ascribing emotional motives to an animal's behavior. Animals are not to be seen as blindly acting out of instinct in all situations. Most animal lovers know this to be inaccurate. Yet even the most confirmed among that group usually has some degree of conditioned bias against other forms of life. Why is it that, unlike indigenous people, modern humans view animals and other life forms as inferior ? Some who has researched this question point to the development of alphabets and written language and the concurrent demise of oral traditions as the essential point of departure between ancient and modern culture. They argue that the development of written language inserted a wedge between humans and the rest of nature, leading to our current state of alienation.

Image

I find the explanation of archeologist Marija Gimbutas more convincing9. Gimbutas documents the rise and eventual dominance of a marauding culture, though to be Kurdish in origin, that invaded Old Europe from the northern desert starting about 7, 000 years ago. She identifies the impetus for this invasion as a severe drought in the north (documented in the archeological records) that led to a migration and conquest on the part of the drought survivors. This marauding culture superseded almost every aspect of the peaceful, egalitarian, nature-worshipping cultures that prevailed in Old Europe during prehistory. It eventually spread to other continents, shifting worldwide values and beliefs toward exploitation of animals and the rest of nature.

In her book, Kohanov dismisses the idea of this invasion of Kurdish horsemen based on her assessment of the Kurdish culture. She feel it is unlikely that the Kurds would have done such a thing and ascribes the shift from the goddess religions to patriarchy as being the result of the rise of settled agriculture. Kohanov is concerned that nomadic horse cultures not be stereotyped as destructive and patriarchal, and that is a good point. She is also concerned that the horse not be blamed for the fall of the goddess societies, the idea being that without horses the invaders might not have been so successful.

Image

I share her concern about that; I love horses and don't want them to be the bad guys of prehistory. However, if one studies the body of Gimbutas's work and the excellent archeological data contained in Marler's work, From the Realm of the Ancestors: An Anthology in Honor of Marija Gimbutas, the data are pretty conclusive. Through the analysis of artifacts, architecture, radiocarbon dating, and DNA testing, it is evident that there was an invading culture from the north that superseded the prevailing cultures of Old Europe. Settled agriculture persisted for thousands of years within the goddess cultures of Old Europe. These cultures were only destroyed when exposed to the marauding or patriarchal culture that came from the north. I don't think one needs to paint all of the nomadic horse cultures with the same brush, but it seems undeniable based on the archeological evidence that at least some faction of this culture went amok sometimes about 7, 000 years ago.




It has been written, in another room of the forum that Kurds are oppressed since 6000 years… But if we follow that thesis of Kurdish Horsemen invading Old Europe, so all the Western World can complain being oppressed by 'Kurdish Warriors' Culture' since 7, 000 years. Is that not funny ? :smile: BTW, if that is true, Kurds should ask royalties to James Cameron who stole their own history for writing Avatar…
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Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehistory

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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:25 pm

No the Kurdish indo-europeans were from the North in the form of the Medes, and Scythians and Parthians to an extent. Medes and Parthians from North Iran, and the Scythians from the caucasus.
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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: Piling » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:55 pm

Marija Gimbutas talked about a period older than the 1st Millenium BC when Medes and other Indo-Aryans people came in Middle-East : between - 7000 and - 3000.

I did not still read her book, I have just bought it ; I will do it soon and post here if I find other mentions of these 'marauding riders' and what she means exactly by naming them 'Kurds'.
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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:11 pm

Piling wrote:Marija Gimbutas talked about a period older than the 1st Millenium BC when Medes and other Indo-Aryans people came in Middle-East : between - 7000 and - 3000.

I did not still read her book, I have just bought it ; I will do it soon and post here if I find other mentions of these 'marauding riders' and what she means exactly by naming them 'Kurds'.

No offence, but if her book states indo-europeans came to west asia 7000 or so years ago, then she has no clue about the indo-europeans. They Proto-indo europeans only formed during that time period, and 2nd millenium BC is the max that indo-europeans started mgirating out. By the way Indo-Aryans didn't really affect the middle-east, well only the Mitanni, but they didn't really affect the Kurdish language or genepool, as some Kurds would like to claim. Considering their language was indic of some type.
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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:27 pm

jjmuneer wrote:No the Kurdish indo-europeans were from the North in the form of the Medes, and Scythians and Parthians to an extent. Medes and Parthians from North Iran, and the Scythians from the caucasus.


The Kurds got strong input from these groups but the Kurds themselves are native to this land.

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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:30 pm

jjmuneer wrote:
Piling wrote:Marija Gimbutas talked about a period older than the 1st Millenium BC when Medes and other Indo-Aryans people came in Middle-East : between - 7000 and - 3000.

I did not still read her book, I have just bought it ; I will do it soon and post here if I find other mentions of these 'marauding riders' and what she means exactly by naming them 'Kurds'.

No offence, but if her book states indo-europeans came to west asia 7000 or so years ago, then she has no clue about the indo-europeans. They Proto-indo europeans only formed during that time period, and 2nd millenium BC is the max that indo-europeans started mgirating out. By the way Indo-Aryans didn't really affect the middle-east, well only the Mitanni, but they didn't really affect the Kurdish language or genepool, as some Kurds would like to claim. Considering their language was indic of some type.


you are totally confusing things. Indo-Aryan doesnt mean coming from India.The Indo-Iranians split into Iranians and Indo-Aryans earlier than them arriving in India. Indo_Aryan is just a terminus nothing else. And the Mitanni are believed to be neither Indo-Aryan nor Iranian but a proto form of both before they split.

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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:26 pm

Kurdistano wrote:
jjmuneer wrote:No the Kurdish indo-europeans were from the North in the form of the Medes, and Scythians and Parthians to an extent. Medes and Parthians from North Iran, and the Scythians from the caucasus.


The Kurds got strong input from these groups but the Kurds themselves are native to this land.

There is no point in denying we descend from those tribes, we should always remain neutral. You cannot state "well they haev strong input in us, but we are native to the lands", that is just a straw man argument. We have equal indo-european and native western asian input, probably shifts more indo-iranian the more east you go in Kurdistan.
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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:31 pm

Kurdistano wrote:
jjmuneer wrote:
Piling wrote:Marija Gimbutas talked about a period older than the 1st Millenium BC when Medes and other Indo-Aryans people came in Middle-East : between - 7000 and - 3000.

I did not still read her book, I have just bought it ; I will do it soon and post here if I find other mentions of these 'marauding riders' and what she means exactly by naming them 'Kurds'.

No offence, but if her book states indo-europeans came to west asia 7000 or so years ago, then she has no clue about the indo-europeans. They Proto-indo europeans only formed during that time period, and 2nd millenium BC is the max that indo-europeans started mgirating out. By the way Indo-Aryans didn't really affect the middle-east, well only the Mitanni, but they didn't really affect the Kurdish language or genepool, as some Kurds would like to claim. Considering their language was indic of some type.


you are totally confusing things. Indo-Aryan doesnt mean coming from India.The Indo-Iranians split into Iranians and Indo-Aryans earlier than them arriving in India. Indo_Aryan is just a terminus nothing else. And the Mitanni are believed to be neither Indo-Aryan nor Iranian but a proto form of both before they split.

I'm not confusing anything, but the indo-aryans split and were an eastern variant of the indo-Iranians, they went into India. They mixed with the locals, probably destroyed alot of the dravadian paternal lingeages. Then the Mitanni who were a mix of this moved to West Kurdistan. However they didn't really affect the genetics of the middle-east.
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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:31 pm

jjmuneer wrote:
Kurdistano wrote:
jjmuneer wrote:No the Kurdish indo-europeans were from the North in the form of the Medes, and Scythians and Parthians to an extent. Medes and Parthians from North Iran, and the Scythians from the caucasus.


The Kurds got strong input from these groups but the Kurds themselves are native to this land.

There is no point in denying we descend from those tribes, we should always remain neutral. You cannot state "well they haev strong input in us, but we are native to the lands", that is just a straw man argument. We have equal indo-european and native western asian input, probably shifts more indo-iranian the more east you go in Kurdistan.

even in the most eastern corner of Kurdistan. The native genetic components dominate by more than 85%.

The question is when does "native" start for you? Every group is to some point immigrants. But when does "native start" for you. For me everything being present longer than 2000-1500 years re native to this land.

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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:34 pm

I already stated pre-indo-european is native. And where did you get 85% percent from? My mcdonald's certainly doesn't show that, I'#m plotted more eastern, showing my iranic component. Along with dodecad. Anyway the strong and persistant Irano-Nordoid tedencies in those regions.
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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:37 pm

jjmuneer wrote:I'm not confusing anything, but the indo-aryans split and were an eastern variant of the indo-Iranians, they went into India. They mixed with the locals, probably destroyed alot of the dravadian paternal lingeages. Then the Mitanni who were a mix of this moved to West Kurdistan. However they didn't really affect the genetics of the middle-east.


JJMUNEER you are turning the whole scientific world upside down. Where do you got this claims from. Which scientific source does claim that Mitannis moved out of India. The split of Iranian and Indo-Aryan appear close to the proto-homeland. The Mitannis migrated into Western Asia about the same time Indo-Aryans appeared in India (probably even earlier). So for Gods sake JJMUNEER now tell me how are the Mitanni immigrants from India. If they werent present there before they arrived in Western Asia?? Not even that most scientist agree that Mitannis spoke a sort of Indo-Iranian dialect from a source before the split of Iranic and Indo.Aryan.

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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: Kurdistano » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:45 pm

jjmuneer wrote:I already stated pre-indo-european is native. And where did you get 85% percent from? My mcdonald's certainly doesn't show that, I'#m plotted more eastern, showing my iranic component. Along with dodecad. Anyway the strong and persistant Irano-Nordoid tedencies in those regions.



Jmmuneer are this your results?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10747&start=15#p88496


Even according to this results you are at least 85% native West Southwest Asian (Med+West Asian+ Southwest Asian).

But this results are based on dodecad v3 which is based on higher Ks and not very accurate. If you use K7b or K10b which is based on ,lower Ks you will even see that you are approximately 90% of native components.

Also dont forget that the Proto Indo-Europeans are natives of Western Asia, only the Indo-Iranian and Slavic branches are believed to have developed in the steppes.

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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:08 pm

Kurdistano wrote:
jjmuneer wrote:I already stated pre-indo-european is native. And where did you get 85% percent from? My mcdonald's certainly doesn't show that, I'#m plotted more eastern, showing my iranic component. Along with dodecad. Anyway the strong and persistant Irano-Nordoid tedencies in those regions.



Jmmuneer are this your results?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10747&start=15#p88496


Even according to this results you are at least 85% native West Southwest Asian (Med+West Asian+ Southwest Asian).

But this results are based on dodecad v3 which is based on higher Ks and not very accurate. If you use K7b or K10b which is based on ,lower Ks you will even see that you are approximately 90% of native components.

Also dont forget that the Proto Indo-Europeans are natives of Western Asia, only the Indo-Iranian and Slavic branches are believed to have developed in the steppes.

Lol you don't know anything about Dodecad's calcualtor do you? West asian includes indo-Iranian, so I'm really not "85% native". Plus south-west asian is possibly Semitic/caucasian influence. The fact of the matter is the proto-indo Iranians were western eurasian, mostly with a signficant north european component to them. This ovbiously changed when they came into contact with southern western asians. And just look at my mcdonald's plot if you don't believe me.
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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:11 pm

Kurdistano wrote:
jjmuneer wrote:I'm not confusing anything, but the indo-aryans split and were an eastern variant of the indo-Iranians, they went into India. They mixed with the locals, probably destroyed alot of the dravadian paternal lingeages. Then the Mitanni who were a mix of this moved to West Kurdistan. However they didn't really affect the genetics of the middle-east.


JJMUNEER you are turning the whole scientific world upside down. Where do you got this claims from. Which scientific source does claim that Mitannis moved out of India. The split of Iranian and Indo-Aryan appear close to the proto-homeland. The Mitannis migrated into Western Asia about the same time Indo-Aryans appeared in India (probably even earlier). So for Gods sake JJMUNEER now tell me how are the Mitanni immigrants from India. If they werent present there before they arrived in Western Asia?? Not even that most scientist agree that Mitannis spoke a sort of Indo-Iranian dialect from a source before the split of Iranic and Indo.Aryan.

Porot indo-Iranians weren't from Afghanistan, andronovo was in Turkimenistan, Kazakhistan and south Russia. Even so lets assume Mitannis were un-mixed indo-Aryans, they did not impact geneticlly upon western Kurds. And you know I'm right.
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Re: Were the Kurds and Kurdish Horses the bad Guys of Prehis

PostAuthor: thesunchild » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:16 pm

jjmuneer wrote:
Kurdistano wrote:
jjmuneer wrote:I'm not confusing anything, but the indo-aryans split and were an eastern variant of the indo-Iranians, they went into India. They mixed with the locals, probably destroyed alot of the dravadian paternal lingeages. Then the Mitanni who were a mix of this moved to West Kurdistan. However they didn't really affect the genetics of the middle-east.


JJMUNEER you are turning the whole scientific world upside down. Where do you got this claims from. Which scientific source does claim that Mitannis moved out of India. The split of Iranian and Indo-Aryan appear close to the proto-homeland. The Mitannis migrated into Western Asia about the same time Indo-Aryans appeared in India (probably even earlier). So for Gods sake JJMUNEER now tell me how are the Mitanni immigrants from India. If they werent present there before they arrived in Western Asia?? Not even that most scientist agree that Mitannis spoke a sort of Indo-Iranian dialect from a source before the split of Iranic and Indo.Aryan.

Porot indo-Iranians weren't from Afghanistan, andronovo was in Turkimenistan, Kazakhistan and south Russia. Even so lets assume Mitannis were un-mixed indo-Aryans, they did not impact geneticlly upon western Kurds. And you know I'm right.

I believe that Mitanni were native to Kurdistan (Zagros mountains /the Iranian plateau).
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