Zerdesht - Who was he and what?

[Gudea]

Zerdesht was from modern-day Afghanistan. nor Kurds seem to were Zerdeshti in a significant number.

[ahoora]

I always have this question? kurdish people(whom I respect them alot) are proudly say they are muslim and yet claim they exist 3500 years,how can you loose your religein to bunch of arabs and insisit in keeping culture and trying to take land from 4 to 5 countries and call it your land?and loosing your language partially to Arabs also,like persian.I don,t mean to offend anyone here,it is just a questions that I have?,I,m Azarie my self ,but proud to be Iranian,that,s my country I love it,I would never go to Turkey or try to be one, bacause I speak the same language.close to any of our boarder we speak the same language but that does not make us another nation,that,s what I believe,and to all my kurdish friend ,iran does not belong to Tehrani or so called persian,persia or iran is made with existance of all of us,that,s why we still exist after at least 2500 years,unlike Iraqies or egyption who lost their culture to their ,religeon,and they call themselves as Arabs!!!I,m still proud of all the kurdish people that they don,t call themselves Arabs,you want to accept the religeon,it is fine,but don,t loose your culture ,or your country to it!! what I,m saying same religeon does not mean the same country,same language does not mean same country either.I have to add I do not believe in the goverment that rules the Iran now,I meant, Iran as a 2500years old or more country, may be I should,ve said Iran( B.A)(Before Ayatollah) LOL

[Diri]

I always have this question? kurdish people(whom I respect them alot) are proudly say they are muslim and yet claim they exist 3500 years,how can you loose your religein to bunch of arabs and insisit in keeping culture and trying to take land from 4 to 5 countries and call it your land?and loosing your language partially to Arabs also,like persian.I don,t mean to offend anyone here,it is just a questions that I have?,I,m Azarie my self ,but proud to be Iranian,that,s my country I love it,I would never go to Turkey or try to be one, bacause I speak the same language.close to any of our boarder we speak the same language but that does not make us another nation,that,s what I believe,and to all my kurdish friend ,iran does not belong to Tehrani or so called persian,persia or iran is made with existance of all of us,that,s why we still exist after at least 2500 years,unlike Iraqies or egyption who lost their culture to their ,religeon,and they call themselves as Arabs!!!I,m still proud of all the kurdish people that they don,t call themselves Arabs,you want to accept the religeon,it is fine,but don,t loose your culture ,or your country to it!! what I,m saying same religeon does not mean the same country,same language does not mean same country either.I have to add I do not believe in the goverment that rules the Iran now,I meant, Iran as a 2500years old or more country, may be I should,ve said Iran( B.A)(Before Ayatollah) LOL

You are contradicting your own statements...

On one side you say why Kurds want to "take land from others" - and on the other side you say Kurds should not "be part of Arab countries"...

Try being less political and more straight-forward... I would appreciate the honesty...

And although I am muslim - Islam is like any other religion: a private matter... Which should not be discussed in politics!

[ahoora]

I,m straight like arrow being kurd and not being arab does not mean a kurd from iraq is the same as kurd from iran,agian same language different country!as baluch of iran,and baluch of pakistan,are not the same,even though there are some similarities,or are you suggesting baluch country,azeri country,and on and on,trust me,guy named Pishevari tried on us azeri once,but we find out there was nothing but separating us form our country,and attach us to another,plus you guys are not as united as you say to be,Kermonshah people,are kurdish too.same culture,same language,just different version of religeon,shiiet,and you guys don,t even considering them as kurd,so unfortunatly,religeon is ,part of the deal,even though ,like you I believe it is personal matter,I guess,we go back to what I said agian same language,even the same culture,does not mean,new country!you want the kurdistan as country? there is no picking and choosing?not to mention the problem between( komoleh and democrat) I guess that,s the two division amoung Iranian kurds! that have not on same page ever!(it,s easier said than done,the unity), I mean,(sitting behind the computer and typing BI JI KURDESTAN,without having tolerance, is easy),acting on it,how ever, seems like 3500 years of struggle and no resault,1600 years ago Islam came,got your religeon away from you( what ever you believed before) and separated you by the means of shiiet and sonni,and even among sonni,there are four or more division,so unfurtunatly,even though neither one of us want to mix religeon with politcs,the realty of it is,they are mixed,so if you want to achive what you believe lost 3500 years,ago,may you should iron out the problem started 1600 years ago,and make the road smoother,for something of more importance,A possible Kurdestan country!

[Diri]

I,m straight like arrow being kurd and not being arab does not mean a kurd from iraq is the same as kurd from iran,agian same language different country!as baluch of iran,and baluch of pakistan,are not the same,even though there are some similarities,or are you suggesting baluch country,azeri country,and on and on,trust me,guy named Pishevari tried on us azeri once,but we find out there was nothing but separating us form our country,and attach us to another,plus you guys are not as united as you say to be,Kermonshah people,are kurdish too.same culture,same language,just different version of religeon,shiiet,and you guys don,t even considering them as kurd,so unfortunatly,religeon is ,part of the deal,even though ,like you I believe it is personal matter,I guess,we go back to what I said agian same language,even the same culture,does not mean,new country!you want the kurdistan as country? there is no picking and choosing?not to mention the problem between( komoleh and democrat) I guess that,s the two division amoung Iranian kurds! that have not on same page ever!(it,s easier said than done,the unity), I mean,(sitting behind the computer and typing BI JI KURDESTAN,without having tolerance, is easy),acting on it,how ever, seems like 3500 years of struggle and no resault,1600 years ago Islam came,got your religeon away from you( what ever you believed before) and separated you by the means of shiiet and sonni,and even among sonni,there are four or more division,so unfurtunatly,even though neither one of us want to mix religeon with politcs,the realty of it is,they are mixed,so if you want to achive what you believe lost 3500 years,ago,may you should iron out the problem started 1600 years ago,and make the road smoother,for something of more importance,A possible Kurdestan country!

You THINK you know what Kurds think... Well guess what - you don't... Where did you hear that Kurds don't consider Kirmashani's for Kurds? That's ridiculous...

And no - like I said; if everybody just keeps his/her religion for him/herself - it's better...

Intolerance means not accepting other's being different...

I do accept others for who they are and so does 99% of Kurds... We are the most tolerant nation in the Middle East...

[ahoora]

You THINK you know what Kurds think... Well guess what - you don't... Where did you hear that Kurds don't consider Kirmashani's for Kurds? That's ridiculous...

...

Intolerance means not accepting other's being different...

I do accept others for who they are and so does 99% of Kurds... We are the most tolerant nation in the Middle East...[/quote]speaking of you and the 99% of accepting others for who they are,let,s start with attack on siwan perwer inGermany which is all over internetand ( kurd attack kurd!!!!!),also I had friends from both sanandaj and kermanshah,I wonder why they were both explaining me that why kurdistan peolpe call kermanshahy people( JOSH OR JUSH) may be you and the other 99% tolerant people can explain it to me , because that word is kurdish,and you and your other 99% do not to hesitate to call them that,which was very bothersome,after they explained what the word means,I recomend go back to kurdistan and see what real people in real world think about each other,as I said anyone can sit behind key board and talk nice,and say the words,but what you trying to achive one day is real,and it is not gonna happen in europe or u.s or any where else but in kurdistan,with real people in there,and who they are ,what they think,I myself was in iran before,during,and after shah left Iran,I was in demonstration,I put myself in front of gun,not that I,m proud of it,I was young,and had no idea what I,m doing can help change regim,had no Idea who Khomeiny is or what he is gonna bring for us,my point is that now I,m not there I can not do or say any thing about Iran,because I,m not there,I don,t know how people think,or react to problems,so I let them make decision,I don,t beleive I stay here enjoy the safty of the country that I live in and tell the people over there to go fight for the reason I beleive is right,and get them killed,those imaginary map that you draw can only come to realty if you fight for it,you don,t have to carry gun and go killing people,you become a doctor or engineer of some kind,and go help your people,educate them,and get them raedy for the day that kurdistan country happens,they know what they rights are,how to choose the new government,how to block others from taking advantage of new country,and that sort of things,and please don,t tell you and 99% know exactly how to do it,I,m sure they know what they want,(freedom,free country,and......) it is your job as new generationto learn and teach your people how to achive those goal,me and 99% of my country did not,think about what happens after shah left,we only zoomed on getting rid of him,and we did good job of that,we just didn,t know things can get worst,like having ayatollahs with zero political experience take over country,all I,m saying a politcal leader who is not willing to risk his life stay there and keep fighting,and goes to europe or U.S.A can be be as good as Ayatollah,not being amoung the people,means they don,t have current view of their people,

[Diri]

You THINK you know what Kurds think... Well guess what - you don't... Where did you hear that Kurds don't consider Kirmashani's for Kurds? That's ridiculous...

...

Intolerance means not accepting other's being different...

I do accept others for who they are and so does 99% of Kurds... We are the most tolerant nation in the Middle East...

speaking of you and the 99% of accepting others for who they are,let,s start with attack on siwan perwer inGermany which is all over internetand ( kurd attack kurd!!!!!),also I had friends from both sanandaj and kermanshah,I wonder why they were both explaining me that why kurdistan peolpe call kermanshahy people( JOSH OR JUSH) may be you and the other 99% tolerant people can explain it to me , because that word is kurdish,and you and your other 99% do not to hesitate to call them that,which was very bothersome,after they explained what the word means,I recomend go back to kurdistan and see what real people in real world think about each other,as I said anyone can sit behind key board and talk nice,and say the words,but what you trying to achive one day is real,and it is not gonna happen in europe or u.s or any where else but in kurdistan,with real people in there,and who they are ,what they think,I myself was in iran before,during,and after shah left Iran,I was in demonstration,I put myself in front of gun,not that I,m proud of it,I was young,and had no idea what I,m doing can help change regim,had no Idea who Khomeiny is or what he is gonna bring for us,my point is that now I,m not there I can not do or say any thing about Iran,because I,m not there,I don,t know how people think,or react to problems,so I let them make decision,I don,t beleive I stay here enjoy the safty of the country that I live in and tell the people over there to go fight for the reason I beleive is right,and get them killed,those imaginary map that you draw can only come to realty if you fight for it,you don,t have to carry gun and go killing people,you become a doctor or engineer of some kind,and go help your people,educate them,and get them raedy for the day that kurdistan country happens,they know what they rights are,how to choose the new government,how to block others from taking advantage of new country,and that sort of things,and please don,t tell you and 99% know exactly how to do it,I,m sure they know what they want,(freedom,free country,and......) it is your job as new generationto learn and teach your people how to achive those goal,me and 99% of my country did not,think about what happens after shah left,we only zoomed on getting rid of him,and we did good job of that,we just didn,t know things can get worst,like having ayatollahs with zero political experience take over country,all I,m saying a politcal leader who is not willing to risk his life stay there and keep fighting,and goes to europe or U.S.A can be be as good as Ayatollah,not being amoung the people,means they don,t have current view of their people,[/quote]

From your post I think you are a bit confused...

You are trying to give me a lecture on how things are in Kurdistan... And you're even trying to tell me how I can help Kurdistan...

Thank you... But I can think with the brain God gave me - thanks for the consideration, though...

It's like you are accusing me and others of being less like Kurdistan and more like foreigners...

You are generalising in a very very bad way - Not my problem that A FEW Sineyî think Kirmashanî are Cash... That shows their ignorance...

What I was refering to when I said: 99% of Kurds are tolerant was: Kurdish culture is tolerant... Just because the PKK got angry with Shivan "switching sides" or that some Sineyî as Sunni Muslims, could see Shia Kirmashanî as cash - does not mean that Kurdish culture or Kurds are intolerant...

Politics is very complicated... Shivan being attacked by the PKK is part of PKK policy... Sineyî accusing Kirmashanîs of being "less Kurdish" or "cash" is just damn ignorant...

The Kurds in Disapora are generally more educated than the Kurds in Kurdistan... Among the Kurds in the Diaspora there is less prejudice and much more tolerance...

Education does a lot to open people's mind...

[ahoora]

I agree,(MIND IS LIKE PARASHOOT,IT ONLY FUNCTION WHEN IT IS OPEN)and do me and all azari a favour on your map of imaginary kurdistun take my state Azarbayejon out of it we are iranian and proud to be that little red area next to( urumieh lake) is IRAN not kurdistan,and I,m not confusedall said if you want to fight and people in front of bullet don,t stay in Norway and tell your people to rise,go there stay ahead of them then fight,like I did in 1979,and now that I,m not there,I let them to make decision how to get rid of mullah,s,and I was not telling you how to do what you do ,I was basically reffering to Kurdish people like(NAHIDS BROTHERS) who came back to kurdistan 1979 as doctor from Germany and tried to help kurdish peolpe in Iran,and gave their life like a true hero,I may not like the idea of separate Kurdistan as new country,but I still respect people who actuualy,risk their life for the cause,now if you think you talk for 99% of your people you should be in kurdistan of iran not in norway ,enjoy your life,talk is cheap,

[Diri]

I agree,(MIND IS LIKE PARASHOOT,IT ONLY FUNCTION WHEN IT IS OPEN)and do me and all azari a favour on your map of imaginary kurdistun take my state Azarbayejon out of it we are iranian and proud to be that little red area next to( urumieh lake) is IRAN not kurdistan,and I,m not confusedall said if you want to fight and people in front of bullet don,t stay in Norway and tell your people to rise,go there stay ahead of them then fight,like I did in 1979,and now that I,m not there,I let them to make decision how to get rid of mullah,s,and I was not telling you how to do what you do ,I was basically reffering to Kurdish people like(NAHIDS BROTHERS) who came back to kurdistan 1979 as doctor from Germany and tried to help kurdish peolpe in Iran,and gave their life like a true hero,I may not like the idea of separate Kurdistan as new country,but I still respect people who actuualy,risk their life for the cause,now if you think you talk for 99% of your people you should be in kurdistan of iran not in norway ,enjoy your life,talk is cheap,

You are judging me - and now you are saying you are not...

Why don't you make up your mind? That IS what one can call "confused"...
You are accusing me of the weirdest things - as if I were some extremist...

1) I am a student...
2) I do not command people to fight...
3) My talk is not cheap... I analyze - I don't judge... Unlike you...

[Heja]

Did Kurds claim he was an Êzidî Kurd? Must have gone past my door... I wasn't aware of that claim...

In fact Yezidi Kurds say he was originally a Kurd but abondoned Yazidi faith and turned against his own people. He preached the new faith among Kurds for many years but could not draw any convert. Some how the Kurds forced him out, and then he found persians more receptive to his message, and the persians became Zoroasterian.

The last emperor of the Medes (Azhidahak) attacked him and his followers, pursuing them all the way to Afghanistan. Zoroaster was killed in that battle. Then Zoroasterians equated the last Median emperor with evil and cruelty and propagated the myth of "Zahak" with the serpents and all that. (see p.4, of "Yazidism: Historical Roots", below)

But interestingly, To the Yezidis, Azhi Dahak does not represent evil. (see p.2) Moreover, depictions of serpents appear on the walls of Holy Lalish [the Yezidi Holy Temple in south/Iraqi Kurdistan], and Yezidis do not view the serpent as a symbol of the bad. (see p.3).

Unfortunately many Kurds have fallen for myths about Zahak and consider Kaveh/Kawa their hero. Kawa could not have been a Kurd, as even in the myth, after killing Zahak (a Kurdish king), he gives the throne to a Persian king (Jamshid). Of course this is just a myth propagated by the Persians and Zoroasterians.

Also according to renowned Kurdish scholar Tawfiq Wahbi, during the 4th and 5th centuries AD the majority of Kurds east of the Zagros, Cizir, Botan, Kirkuk, and those in the mountains of southeast Kurdistan were not Zoroastrians. (see p.2)


Here is a nice article from International Journal of Kurdish Studies:

Yazidism: Historical Roots

[Vladimir]

That's maybe because of Serefxan Bidlisi. Interesting post.

[Carduchi]

Hi people...

Sassanids were a very fanatical Zoroastrian people, just like modern Shia Akhunds of Iran. They had a king Shapur who had nothing less than Chengis or Tamerlane.

[Jamo]

According to most Zarathustrians he lived in Central Asia near Afghanistan and Turkmenistan 3500 years ago. At his times this area was called Bactria. However, nobody really knows when and where he exactly lived. He probably spoke the Old Avestan language. Today some scientists and linguists suggest that Old Avestan might be close to modern Sanskrit and Rigveda languages. The only thing that we know is he was an Iranic Aryan.

For me and I think for most Zoroastrians it doesn't really matter whether he was from Persian, Pashtun, Kurdish, or Zaza origin. What important is his message to humankind.

Btw, his real name is Zarathustra Spitama not Zoroaster (Greek version).

[Jamo]

You seem to have made a whole new thread out of this...

Let's see.

According to scientists and historians he was born/or was living in Balkh or Eastern Aryana (when considering the language).
According to Tajikistan (during the 2003 Zoroastrian festivals), he was a Tajik.
According to Greeks he was Bactrian.
According to the Avesta, he was born in presentday Azerbaijan/Kordestan (which were Medean lands), with Turks claiming he was Turkish (because they are obviously dimwitted), and Kurds claiming he is Kurdish.

It wouldn't surprise me that he was called Aso, being a Yezidi Kurd, abandoning his religion found Zoroastrianism, and all that jazz, ACCORDING TO KURDS. Different people have different stories about him, and believe different things...it's natural...

Now I have a question. Does Medean necessarily mean "Kurdish"? Weren't there Kurds before the Medeans, Persians and other Aryan people?

I think Avesta is the most reliable source... Bactria could be anywhere - as it's borders are hard to define...

I rather trust the Avesta...

Avesta is actually not a very reliable source it contains a lot information but some of them are unfortunately incorrect. Gathas that were written by Asho Zarathustra are the only holy texts. Avesta was written many centuries later by some Zarathustrian Median and Babylonian Magis. However, Avesta gives one a view of Zarathustrian prayers and ceremonies. These magis were priests and were considered as magicians. These magis actually are mentioned in the Bible. 3 holly kings from east were actually not priests but magicians from Persia (Babylonia). Because magicians are considered harmful in Christianity they simly changed it into Kings.

[Diri]

According to most Zarathustrians he lived in Central Asia near Afghanistan and Turkmenistan 3500 years ago. At his times this area was called Bactria. However, nobody really knows when and where he exactly lived. He probably spoke the Old Avestan language. Today some scientists and linguists suggest that Old Avestan might be close to modern Gorani and Zazaki languages. The onlt thing that we know is he was an Iranic Aryan.

For me and I think for most Zoroastrians it doesn't really matter whether he was from Persian, Pashtun, Kurdish, or Zaza origin. What important is his message to humankind.

Btw, his real name is Zarathustra Spitama not Zoroaster (Greek version).

Well you see things are more complicated than that...

There are basically 3-4 places people believe that he "might" be from... And of these, 2 are in todays Kurdistan - and the 4th was "Medya" back then - south of today's "Tehran" (Iran's capital city today)...

Although the claim about Bactria seems to be supported by a lot of scholars and obviously by most PERSIAN Zerdeştî - there are many who say otherwise...

Kurds say he was Kurdish etc...

There are two Kurdish claims: 1) He was from Soma û Biradosta (Ûrmiye) 2) He was from Hewreman (hence Zerdeştî literature being in Avestan - which basically is today's Hewramî)...

Now the Soma û Biradosta claim is supported by the fact that the most important of The Four Temples of Eternal Flame - was just south of Lake Wan - near Meraxe... This also supports the claim of Hewraman and the Rey (near Tehran) claim...

The only claim which falls too far from this tree, is the Balx (in what was then Bactria) claim...

As I mentioned - the Hewraman claim is further substantiated by the fact that Hewramî (language) is the direct evolution of Avestan... Somebody who speaks Hewramî will have little to no problem reading/understanding the original texts in Avestan...

However - Avestan was the "high language" of the time - and must have been used by the whole of the empire in literature at the time - so that in a way weakens the Hewraman claim - since it becomes less "special"...

As for his name - according to some sources his name was Aso, not Zerdeşt. Zerdeşt being a title - meaning "Enlightened" while others say "Aso" was a title, and not his original name...

And although it is correct that there is some disagreement about his name, one cannot rule out that "Zoroaster" or "Zerdeşt" are incorrect renditions of his name, since nobody has a faint idea or proof to render the correct version...

Persians say "Zartosht", Kurds say "Zerdeşt"... Either way - all the names, even "Zoroaster" and "Aso" have meanings in Kurdish... And even if you changed the name to "Zarathustra" it will still have a meaning in Kurdish... His surname is indeed as you said, believed to have been "Spitama"...

Those "Magî" which they were called, were not from "Persia" - but from Amediya - which is this town:



This is in the heart of Kurdistan - Central Kurdistan - right on the border between today's Turkey and Iraq - East of Xabûr...

And "Persia" and "Babylonia" are two different things, if you don't mind - so I don't see why you write:

Persia (Babylonia)

You are right about Avesta being written later... Yet a lot of the Gathas have gone lost and most of the rest of the Zerdeştî literature along with it, sad to say...