Common Kurdish Heritage: "V/W" in Kurdish Languages

[Emanoelkurdistani]

Common Kurdish Heritage: "V/W" in Kurdish Languages

There are two major stems among Kurdish languages in case of pronouncing "v" and "w": northern and southern stems. In the northern stem both Kurmancî and Zazakî (Dimilkî, Kirdkî and Kirmanckî) lie together while in the southern one stay Soranî, Goranî (Feylî, Gerrûsî, Kelhûrî, etc.) and Hewramî (Hewramî, Kakaî, Maço, etc.).
Hewramî and Zazakî (Dimilkî, Kirdkî, Kirmanckî are independent languages so own some differences in contrast with the language most of Kurdish people speak. The differences of which are followed by Parthian influence during the rule of Parthian empire in Kurdistan and most parts of Middle East. Hence we face two kinds of these stems in these two languages: the original one and the stranger one. Such duality especially exists in the Zazakî (Dimilkî, Kirdkî, Kirmanckî) and clarifies the origin of this language in another manner. In Zazakî (Dimilkî, Kirdkî, Kirmanckî) language there exists a stranger stem that could be traced from Parthian loan-words and an original one recognizable from early loan-words of Arabic, Turkish, etc. origin.
In Soranî and Goranî Kurdish there exists only one-original stem that is generalized to all probable loan-words plus the original ones.
Take a look at the below examples:

Kurmancî : Kirmanckî (Zazakî) : Hewramî : Goranî : Soranî : English

av : awe : awî : aw : aw : water
ewr : hewr : ewr/hewr : hewr : hewr : cloud
berf/befr: vewre : werwe/wewre/vewre/verwe : befr/wefr : befr/bewr/wefr : snow
baran : varan : waran/varan : waran/baran : baran/warişt : rain
xwe/xweyşk : wae : wallê : xweyşk : xweyşk : sister
xwerdin : werdene : wardey : xwardin : xwardin : to eat
bihar : wesar : wehar : wehar : behar/wehar : spring
gûtin : vatene : watey/vatey : witin/wûtin : witin/wûtin : to say
ber : ver : wer/ver : wer : ber/wer/per : fore
xweş : weş : weş : xweş : xweş : fine/sweet
bav : bawk : baw/bawk : bawk : bawk : father/dad


The examples of Arabic loan-words:

Kurmancî : Kirmanckî (Zazakî) : Hewramî : Goranî : Soranî : Arabic: English

kitab : kitav : kitêw : kitaw : kitêw/kitaw : kîtab : book
cewab : cewav : cewaw : cewaw : cewaw : cewab : answer


Both "v" and "w" stay in Hewramî and Kirmanckî (Zazakî) languages. The "v" in the verbs and words such as "vatey/vatene", "varan", "ver", etc. comes from the Avestan root "v", although may some of those verbs or words have been borrowed from Parthian. But in Goranî and Soranî Kurdish this Old Iranian "v" has changed into "w" or "b". The "w" in the Hewramî and Zazakî verbs and words like "wardey/werdene", "weş","wallê/wae", etc. is the developed form of Parthian initial "wx-" in the Parthian respective loan-words: "wxerden", "wxeş", "wxar", etc. (there is a common Kurdish desire in dropping meddle "-x-" so both Hewramî and Zazakî Kurdish have dropped the "-x-" in the Parthian loan-words, no other Iranian language influenced with Parthian displays such tendency expect Baluchi as we face Mazandarani/Gilaki/Talyshi equivalents for the mentioned words so: haxordên/xurdin/hurdê", "xeş/xûş/xûş", xaxêr/xaxûr/xalê"). "
Some times the "w" in all speeches is same as the Old Iranian form: Kurdish "ewr/hewr", Avestan "ewre-"; but Persian and Mazandarani "ebr", Talyshi "xûr", Gilaki "ebr/xûr". Often Old Iranian "-p/-p-" turns into "-w/-w-" in Kurdish: Soranî and Zazakî "hewt" < Avestan "hepte-" and "we-har/we-sar" > Avestan "epe-serid".
Totally Hewramî and Zazakî Kurdish have preserved Old Iranian "v" better than any other Iranian language and have developed the middle "-f-/-p-" into "-w-". But the change of "-f-/-p-" to "-w-" is not the original form for Zazakî Kurdish since the development of early Arabic loanwords such as "kitav" (< Arabic "kitab") and "cewav" (< Arabic "cewab") displays the original tendency of Zazakî Kurdish speakers in development of "-b"/"-f"/"-p" in "-v". It's interesting that this tendency is exactly same as their Kurmancî Kurdish speaking neighbors (e.g. bav < bab, av < ape, etc.). The Zazakî Kurdish has been brought to its present territory of speaking probably by migration of the Kurdish Yarsans (Ehl-ê Heq), speaking a variety of Hewramî, from southeastern Kurdistan. So Zazakî Kurdish today is spoken in the former Kurmancî speaking areas. You can trace this fact from the way that Zazakî (Kirmanckî) speakers call themselves: "Kirmanc", while the Kurmancî speaking Kurds call themselves "Kurmanc" with respect to the point that in the southern Kurdish speeches (Hewramî, Goranî, Soranî) the term "Kurmanc" is pronounced as "Kirmanc". So Kurmancî and Kirmanckî (Zazakî) speaking Kurds are originally same but the second group speak another beautiful Kurdish speech followed by influence of religious steams from southeastern Kurdistan. But in some cases such as tendency to turn "-b/-f/-p" into "-v" they present an interesting similarity displaying the origins:

Original tendency "-b/-p/-f" > "v":

Kurmancî: bab > bav, ape > av, keftin > kev-

Kirmanckî (Zazakî): bibe > bivi, be > ve, kitav > kitab, çê-ber > çê-ver

But all developments of "-b/-p/-f" into "-w" in Zazakî (Kirmanckî) have occurred in the former territory of speaking not in its present one:

Kirmanckî (Zazakî): (abere- >) awer- > a(wi)rdene, ape > awe, (hepte- >) heft > hewt

Interesting that the second process is exactly same as Hewramî, Soranî and Goranî Kurdish development:

Hewramî: (abere- >) awer- > awirdey/ardey, ape > awî, (hepte- >) heft > hewt

Soranî: (abere- >) awer- > hawirdin/hênan, ape > aw, (hepte- >) heft > hewt/heft

Goranî: (abere- >) awer- > awirdin, ape > aw, (hepte- >) heft > heft

But in Northern Iranian languages and Persian we get:
Mazandarani: (abere- >) awer- > havordên, ape > ô (also "ab"), (hepte- >) heft > heft
Gilak: (abere- >) awer- > havordin, ape > ô (also "ab"), (hepte- >) heft > heft
Talyshi: (abere- >) awer- > avordê, ape > ov, (hepte- >) heft > heft
Persian: (abere- >) awer- > averden, ape > ab, (hepte- >) heft > heft


In front of this tendency to change "-b/-p/-f" to "-v" in Kurmancî and Kirmanckî (Zazakî) we face the tendency to change in "-w" in Hewramî, Soranî and Goranî:

Hewramî: bab > bawk, cewab > cewaw, keft- > kewtey
Soranî: bab > bawk, cewab > cewaw, keft- > kewtin/keftin
Gorani: bab > bawk, cewab > cewaw, keft- > keftin

But in Northern Iranian languages and Persian:

Mazandarani: baba > baba, cewab > cevab, -
Gilaki: baba > baba, cewab > cevab, -
Talyshi: baba > baba, cewab > cevab, -
Persian: baba > baba, cewab > cevab, keft- > kepîden (?)

[Johny Bravo]

@emanuel

thank you for the interesant post. and thank you that you speak about "kurdish languages" and not "kurdish dialects".

kitab : kitav : kitêw : kitaw : kitêw/kitaw : kîtab : book
cewab : cewav : cewaw : cewaw : cewaw : cewab : answer

Only in some Zaza dialects came this b -> v in loanwords. The most Zazas do use "kitab" and "cewab".

bibe > bivi, be > ve, kitav > kitab, çê-ber > çê-ver

This is also a phenomen for some Zaza dialects. The most use "bibe", "be" and "çêber" or "kêber" (more original).

bav : bawk : baw/bawk : bawk : bawk : father/dad

The most Zazas use here "baw", without "k". But this is so:

In the vocatic, if you call the father, than you say: bawo! But in an normal sentence the most use 'pî', who come from the old iranic 'pît' (oblique: pîtar). Example: pî-yê mi = my father. This same is with mother. If you call, then you say: dayê! But in a sentence you say: ma-ya mi = my mother.

[Johny Bravo]

ps:

here is a interesant document about balochi:

http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/ ... amberg.htm

it is in german, but you can look to the linguistic tables.

"to fall" in northwest-iranian:

old nw-iranian: *kap
Balochi: kap- / kapt,
Kurmanji: -kev- / ket,
Zazaki: kewn- / kewt

old southwest-iranian: *pat:
Persian oft- / oftād

[Emanoelkurdistani]

Well in the cases like observing the development of b > v/w or preservation of an old word the work involves the quality not the quantity. Therefore it's not important if the subject occurs in the whole- or most of-varieties or not. If you faced it in some, so it's enough. For example almost all the Kiramckî (Zazakî) speakers say "kûtik" to "dog" besides those from-if I'm not mistaken- Pîran who say "sibe". Also in some Soranî Kurdish sub-dialects we have "sipe"~"dog" while the others mainly use "seg", "gemal", "sena", etc. But it's enough to say that Soranî and Kirmanckî have persevered the Median "sipeke" ~ "dog" as "sipe" and "sibe" respectively though most of their respective speakers may not use those words.

So I know not all Zazakî (Kirmanckî) speakers say "cewav", "kitav", "ve", etc. but when you want to observe any turn of "b" into "v" or "w" while you know the fact that a significant number of varieties have developed "b" into "v" so you can conclude if any "b" > "v" or "w" is going to occur in Zazakî (Kirmanckî) Kurdish it shall be "b" > "v" (kitab > kitav, cewab > cewav, etc.) just same as their neighbor Kurmancî speaking Kurds (e.g. bab > bav, ape > av, etc.) and in contrast with the prior-unoriginal tendency recognizable from the earlier words in Zazakî Kurdish ( e.g. ape > awe, epe-serid > we-sar, etc.)

Here are some other examples illustrating the tendency to turn "b" into "v" in Zazakî (Kirmnackî) language:

Kirmanckî (Zazakî) Varieties : Kirmanckî (Zazakî) : English

(weş) vi : (weş) be : be (fine/happy)
ve (to) : be/bi (to) : to (thee)
xevet- : xebet- : to effort
vo : bo : (he/it) may be
seva : seba : for

And about the vocative use of "bawo" and "dayê" you're right they, Zazakî speaking Kurds, mainly use those words to call father or mother (another sign of the Common Kurdish Heritage).
But about the use of "pî" and "bawk" as far as I know "bawk" is also used-but in a lesser extent:

Here are the entries of the Turkish-Zazakî (Kirmnackî) online dictionary by zazaki.org:

baba : pêr (n), pî (n); baba (n), babî (n), bawk (n)
baba (hitap hali) [~vocative] : baba, bawo, babo, keko

you may check it out yourself http://www.zazaki.org

[Diri]

In Colemêrg, we say "Se" for "Dog"...


Add that to your list of Kurdish names for "Dog"...



Great topic and interesting input from the two of you Johny and Emanoel... Dest xoş!

[Emanoelkurdistani]

@Diri
Sipas Kake, yes "se" also exist in eastern Soranî varieties too. Bibore bira heger bersivên min dirêje dikîşên. i'm so busy with my uni exams and linguistic researches both!

[Diri]

@Diri
Sipas Kake, yes "se" also exist in eastern Soranî varieties too. Bibore bira heger bersivên min dirêje dikîşên. i'm so busy with my uni exams and linguistic researches both!

Yes, I'd think so too... Since it's also used in other Iranic languages...

". . . bersîvên min dirêjin." is correct... You don't "take long replies", but your "replies are long"...

Which subjects are your exams for?

We should make Colemêrgî the standard written Kurdmancî

[Emanoelkurdistani]

@Diri
Sipas Kake, yes "se" also exist in eastern Soranî varieties too. Bibore bira heger bersivên min dirêje dikîşên. i'm so busy with my uni exams and linguistic researches both!

Yes, I'd think so too... Since it's also used in other Iranic languages...

". . . bersîvên min dirêjin." is correct... You don't "take long replies", but your "replies are long"...

Which subjects are your exams for?

We should make Colemêrgî the standard written Kurdmancî

I'm studying Industrial Design bro.

Colemêrgî seems to be an interesting Kurmancî sub-dialect. Beside your notice on using "-em" (dik-em) instead of common Kurmancî "-im", I have seen you use "me-" for negative (me-ke) instead of common Kurmancî "ne-". Colemêrgî is the purest among all Kurmancî sub-dialects in case of these two features.

[Johny Bravo]

The Southern Kurds do use also "wefir", look here:

http://www.kirmashan.com/index.php?opti ... &Itemid=72

Look here:

http://www.kurdishacademy.org/ku/courses/south/040.html

Its come from the old iranic "vafra".

[Diri]

@Diri
Sipas Kake, yes "se" also exist in eastern Soranî varieties too. Bibore bira heger bersivên min dirêje dikîşên. i'm so busy with my uni exams and linguistic researches both!

Yes, I'd think so too... Since it's also used in other Iranic languages...

". . . bersîvên min dirêjin." is correct... You don't "take long replies", but your "replies are long"...

Which subjects are your exams for?

We should make Colemêrgî the standard written Kurdmancî

I'm studying Industrial Design bro.

Colemêrgî seems to be an interesting Kurmancî sub-dialect. Beside your notice on using "-em" (dik-em) instead of common Kurmancî "-im", I have seen you use "me-" for negative (me-ke) instead of common Kurmancî "ne-". Colemêrgî is the purest among all Kurmancî sub-dialects in case of these two features.

Serkeftî bî birayê delal... Hiwîdarim kû rê'ya te rûnahî û fireh bît...

Indeed Colemêrgî is more authentic and rustic than say for example Bakranî (Amed) or Botanî etc... The "-im" suffix is a Turkish influence - which the Turks initially borrowed from the Persian "-em"... So yes, "-em" is definetly more original than "-im", I concur...

"Me-" is used alongside "Ne-" - and the former is more authentic in root than the latter, as you noted...

But it doesn't stop here... The matter is that Colemêrgî has a far richer vocabulary (of words from Kurdish origin) than say for example Bakran or Botanî - which have both (sadly) have been influences more by Turkish vocabulary (such as using Arabic words)... This is mostly because of Colemêrg's isolated rural landscape... Which also is the source of the rich culture found in Colemêrg: it hasn't changed much since 100 years before...

But slowly - centres of cities are forming in Hekarî, Gewer, Elbak and elsewhere in Colemêrg - this means that Turkic influence and other outside-culture is spreading more widely now than before...

Most Kurdish children in Colemêrg speak Kurdish - whereas if you went to other regions, you'd find that many only teach their kids Turkish, so that they will better survive in the Turkish Republic...

The word "Hakkariliyim" ("I am from Colemêrg") is like a SWORD in the stomach of Turks - because they know we are some of the most fiercely traditional and patriotic Kurds around...