Turkish; Words from Kurdish, Arabic & Persian

[Vladimir]

Praising Islam is the same in Ottoman works. It's normal in Islamic literature.

[Piling]

Ottoman work was mroe influenced by persian than Kurdish poet

And it is not pnmy the convention of praising God, calling his pity, then praising the prophet and calling his intercession it is that somme passages at the beginning of Mem and Zîn are quite the same than Farid od Dîn 'Attar (The language of Birds".

[McKurd]

Why am I even bothered?

Lol, Did you ever read Mem and Zîn ? it is full of Sufi symbols, then Arabic terms ! and the beginning of Mem and Zîn with his praising of Allâh, Muhammad, etc is the exact model of Persian poetry.

Xani was a believer of Islam, so what? As was the entire “Middle-East”
However, it does not imply he was influenced by Arabic poetry. Islam has been portrayed a lot in Kurdish literature. We had many of the greatest poets raised and educated in the religious “medressah” (were they also developed a Kurdish consciousness) OF COURSE they are influenced by religion.

What are the usual themes in Kurdish edebiyet? - The political struggle, our history, women etc. Are they the same in Arabic and Persian?
Do you even know the difference between Islam and Arabic culture? Islam is not equal to Arabic culture vice versa.

Early Kurdish journalism - pure, naked and genuine - Kurdistan, Hawar, Nishtiman just to name a few… where in Arabic/Persian literature can you find work such as these? And these were not just simple magazines...

Some passages seem to be copied on Farid ud Dîn 'Attar

Hehe..this was Xani’s inspiration? Come one, Shakespeare’s Romeo n Juliet aint nothing new. Neither was ‘alf Layla wa Layla/the Nights (these were stories created through the mouth-to-mouth effect).

The red thread in Xanis work is not to portray love and its downfall, expectations on men vs women, portray vizier’s; slaves; fishermen etc but to show the separation of his people strangled between the Persians and the Mongols. Xani did not settle himself the greatest name in Kurdish edebiyet because he as you so beautifully put it “copied” some mediocre Persian poet.[/quote]

[Piling]

However, it does not imply he was influenced by Arabic poetry.

I did'nt say it. He was influenced by Persian poetry and sufism, then Arab sufisn like Ibn Arabî.

The red thread in Xanis work is not to portray love and its downfall, expectations on men vs women, portray vizier’s; slaves; fishermen etc but to show the separation of his people strangled between the Persians and the Mongols. Xani did not settle himself the greatest name in Kurdish edebiyet because he as you so beautifully put it “copied” some mediocre Persian poet

I will say all the contrary. Xanî's work described a Kurdish courts, a Kurdish prince society, a love story and sufi concepts. Concerning nationalism (and trouble between Ottomans ans Safavids) it embraces only 2 chapters : about the Kurdish Question and why he wrote Kurdish. These passages are very famous for Kurds, and they are important, but Mem and Zîn is, at 90% a story of Love and sufism. Mem an Zîn is a hard criticism of hypocrisy in society, a critics of princes and sovereign in general, too. Not only a nationalist novel.

And I don't think that 'Attar was a mediocre poet

But of course first Kurdish poetry was greatly influenced by Persian literature and islam. It is not a sign of bad quality, it is normal at each beginning of a culture. An "indigenous" culture is a poor one. I never said that Kurdish literature is inferior to Persian's or Ottoman's. Just say that Persian medieval culture was essential to the formation of Ottoman and Kurdish modern literature. (modern means after 16th century until 18th-19th).

[Utopia]

from mem u zin..
Sernameyê name, namê Ellah
Bê namê wî natemam e wellah

Ey metle'ê husnê 'işqibazî
Mehbûbê heqîqî û mecazî

Namê te ye lewhê nameya 'işq
Ismê te ye neqşê xameya 'işq

Bê neqşê te, neqşê xame xam e
Bê namê te, name natemam e

Namê te ye şahibeytê meqsûd
Fihristê mukatebatê mehmûd

Medmûnê muraselatê la-reyb
Meşhûdê mukaşefatê bi-l-xeyb

Mehbûbê qulûbê men lehu l-qelb
Qelban tu dikî bi ba xwe ve celb

Me'şûq tu yî, bi fexr û naz î
'Aşiq tu yî, lêk bêniyaz î

Mutleq tu mufîd û mustefad î
Bêşubhe murîd û hem murad î

Nûr î tu di husn-i rûyê dildar
Nar î tu di qelbê 'aşiqê zar

Şem' î, ne ji qismê nûr û nar î
Şems î, ji 'eyan tu perdedar î

Genc î tu di nêv tilismê 'alem
Kenz î tu 'eyan ji ismê adem

Ev 'alem û ademî û meşhûd
Ev mumkin û masiwayê mewcûd

Hemiyan bi te ye mudare û debr
Feyyadê riyadê xelq û we-l-emr

Emrê te bi lefzê »kun« du 'alem
Mewcûd kirin, xered çi adem

Adem bi xwe yek ji herdiwan e
Yek herf e ji emrê »kun« fe-kane

Ew herf, heqîqeta muheqqeq
Hem emr e bi qudreta te hem xelq

Eşbah muressem in ji nasût
Erwah muwessem in ji lahût

Ev rûh û cesed bi cebr û ikrah
Tezwîc bûyîn bi emrê Ellah

Nasûtî egerçi rengsefal e
Lahûtî ji pertewa cemal e

Herfa ko me gotî, neqşihûr e
Lê meqsed û me'neya wê kûr e

Zahir te eger numaye suxra
Batin ew e neqşê xame kubra

Mewcûd e di wî şehadet û xeyb
Meşhûd e di wî siyadet û 'eyb

Insan bi xwe hem zelam e hem nûr
Adem ji te hem qerîb e hem dûr

Hindî weh ko cinsê 'alemî ne
Ew tabi'ê new'ê ademî ne

Evrenge felek hemî mu'ezzem
Evçende melek hemî mukerrem

Ev karegeha 'ezîm û dewwar
Ev baregeha bedî' û seyyar

Evçende zemîn digel 'enasir
Evrenge 'ered digel cewahir

Evçendehe ni'met û nefa'is
Evrengehe me'kel û melabis

Evçendehe mudde'a û metlûb
Evrengehe muşteha û mehbûb

Heywan û me'adin û nebatat
Metlûb û meqasid û muradat

Bi l-cumle ji bo me ra li kar in
Fi l-cumle ji bo me ber di bar in

Heqqa ko te xweş nizam û rewneq
Tertîb kirin ji bo me el-heq

Em xafil û 'atil û gunehkar
Mayîne di qeydê nefsi emmar

Nînin me di qelbî fikr û zikrek
Nakin bi zebanî hemd û şikrek

Xanî ko nehin bi qelbî zakir
Barî bide wî zebanê şakir




Ehmedê Xanî

i believe when talking about kurdish language the role of the geography of kurdistan cannot be neglected. pls dont forget that it is a mountainous area and the clan(tribe) relations are very important. besides, in the period that melaye ciziri and other most of poets you are talking about lived, people were educated in madrasah. even though kurdish was one of the languages in which lessons were taught, there is no doubt that arabic was as dominant as kurdish. maybe people in daily works spoke in kurdish, but they also were praying in arabic, reading Quran,(maybe only source that common people read) and etc.
when kurds met with foreigners turkish, persian or arabic were used to communicate rather than kurdish. because kurdish was a language mostly used in daily life orally. due to their pastoral lifestyle kurdish as a written language could not improve. therefore kurdish intellectuals mostly imitated persian,arabic or turkish intellectuals especially in style (gazels, qasides,beyits etc.) they expressed their lifestyle, emotions in borrowed styles.(topics were peculiar to kurds, styles were not) when you look at the mem u zin, feqi teyran, melaye ciziri you can easily see that the styles aren't original. what makes "mela"ye ciziri "mela"ye ciziri(and most of others i have read) is not originality of style but the well-expression of the kurdish life,history in a well-imitated style.

[Diri]

Thanks...

Now back to topic...

[hingiv]

intresting topic ! I guesse once I heared Bazar in Turkish news.
Bazar is Kurdish too.

Bazar is from arabic mazar (مزار) - place to visit
The letter "m" was changed to "p" or "b".

visiting - ziyara (زيارة)
to visit - zara (زار)

[Diri]

So - Hingiv... Sister, are you Arab? Or do you study Arabic, since you know these words? And since you write in Arabic!? Haha


I guess you've studied and learnt Arabic... Right?

Some more words in Turkish which have been borrowed from Kurdish:

English ------------Turkish -------- Kurdish
Binoculars -------- Dürbin -------> Dûrbîn = In Kurdish it literally means "Far-see" => Dûr = Far + Bîn = See
Help/Support ----- Destek -------> Destek = In Kurdish it literally means "A hand" => Dest = Hand + -ek suffix = a/one
Handkerchief ----- Desmal -------> Destmal = In Kurdish it literally means "Hand-posession" => Dest = Hand + Mal = Posession/Ware(s)

[Sirwan]

intresting topic ! I guesse once I heared Bazar in Turkish news.
Bazar is Kurdish too.

Bazar is from arabic mazar (مزار) - place to visit
The letter "m" was changed to "p" or "b".

visiting - ziyara (زيارة)
to visit - zara (زار)

Hi,

Bazar (or as in Kurdish: 'Bajar') is not derived from Arabic 'mazâr'!
It is derived from Pahlawi (middle west Iranic) ''Baha Jar'' which measn ''place of prices''.
Baha = place
jar = place (in modern Kurdish jar measn plain.)

[Johny Bravo]

I found a new thing. Even the word for "Evening" is from iranian languages. The word "aksham" in turkish what meaning "evening" is from iranian "sham / shan", what is also in words as char-sham (fourth evening) etc. See here, the turks had it borrowed of the sogdian-iranians, by the invasion on central asia for many hundred years:

http://www.nisanyan.com/sozluk/search.a ... am&x=0&y=0

We Zazas still use "shan" for "evening" and also Afghan Persians us it as "sham". It is oldiranic. It is a disgrace that the turks have not a own word for "evening".

[hingiv]

Hi,

Bazar (or as in Kurdish: 'Bajar') is not derived from Arabic 'mazâr'!
It is derived from Pahlawi (middle west Iranic) ''Baha Jar'' which measn ''place of prices''.
Baha = place
jar = place (in modern Kurdish jar measn plain.)

Nice version. Why not?

I mean Bazar-Mazar as place for visiting when a lot of people visits any religion places and stars market there. For example (trade) fair in Mekka before Islamic period.

[Diri]

I found a new thing. Even the word for "Evening" is from iranian languages. The word "aksham" in turkish what meaning "evening" is from iranian "sham / shan", what is also in words as char-sham (fourth evening) etc. See here, the turks had it borrowed of the sogdian-iranians, by the invasion on central asia for many hundred years:

http://www.nisanyan.com/sozluk/search.a ... am&x=0&y=0

We Zazas still use "shan" for "evening" and also Afghan Persians us it as "sham". It is oldiranic. It is a disgrace that the turks have not a own word for "evening".

Yes - almost all of the Turkish names of the days are non-Turkic...

English - Turkish
Friday = Cuma = Arabic
Saturday = Cumartesi = Arabic
Thursday = Perşembe = Iranic
Sunday = Pazar = Iranic (Pazar = Bazar = Bajar - day of shopping/market - this day is called "Roja Bazarê" in Red Kurdistan Kurmancî)
Monday = Pazartesi = Iranic
Wednesday = Çarşamba = Iranic

I have no idea where "Sali" ("Tuesday") comes from...

@Johny ---- "Şem" is still alive in Kurdish as "Şew" and "Şev"...

[Johny Bravo]

Shit, the most neutral and most scientig etymology site "nisanyan" was hacked from turkish hackers!!

@Diri

Yes, shem is in realtion with "shev".

[SinekSekiz]

I really do not understand why do you think this is something really emberrasing. We did not take these words from Arabic or Kurdish because there was a lack in our language. We can easly find original Turkish word for it. You can use TDK's dictionary for it. We excet this because we except islam. Kuran came in Arabic and then translated. If Kuran would came in English the countries except the religion would have English infiluance in it.

Most of these topics does not maes sence... Instead of wasting time on these it is better to argue about how can we solve the problems we are having and carry on. With the time we waste on our problems we could easly catch westin science and technology..