Turkish; Words from Kurdish, Arabic & Persian

[Diri]

Well yeah that what I said...Kurdish culture was not influent for Ottoman empire, whereas Farsi was a regional language at the time...

LOL Diri, leader of the HLF (Hafta liberation front)

LOOOL


I agree that Kurdish wasn't a regional language - it was a local thing... But still - expressions used in Kurdish, and words - have been borrowed by many nations from Kurds...

And don't forget - Kurdish intellectuals wrote in Farsi, Turkish and Arabic - so they could have used Kurdish expressions and thus Arabs, Persians and Turks started using them too...

There could be so many reasons...


For example - the Persians could have borrowed a word from Kurdish - before Persian became a regional language - and thus spread along with Persian words - Kurdish ones too...


So many possibilities...

[tomjez]

Being neither turkish nor farsi nationalist (breton forever ) I don't really care

[McKurd]

I don't agree. Persian was the intellectual and cultural language of Anatolia since the 12th century.

Excusez moi, it is called Bakur and not Anatolia, my God some ppl are stuck in the 90s…

I don't think that Ottoman had been influenced a lot by Kurdish for in Western cities like Istanbul, there were not an important Kurdish cultural lobby...

It depends on during what period you are referring to, forgotten about the Bedirxans? University of Galatasaray used to stand as "mektebi Sultanye" for the Bedirxans!


The Ottoman Empire may have been Turkish speaking but let’s not forget the fact that it was a mix of Mongols, Arabs, Kurds, Christians etc. It is therefore likely that words you find in modern turkey arrived from Kurds with prominent seats living within the empire.
Yes, literature thrived as the ottomans adapted Persian and Arab models, but these works were translated into Turkish. During a translation, can you re-use the original words? No, this is why the Kurdish language played a role.

This discussion is however pointless, you seem to forget that both Kurdish & persian are Indo-European languages. The discussion is at the same low Kinden garden level as “I am Persian therefore superior so give me that toy”…

[Piling]

Excusez moi, it is called Bakur and not Anatolia, my God some ppl are stuck in the 90s…

Anatolia and Kurdish areas are not the same one. Anatolia is Western Turkey. Kurdistan is located under Armenia, on Northern Mesopotamia, and Jazirah. Rumî Saljuks were more located in Anatolia, as Ottoman first period, and their written language was Persian in 12th century.

In Kurdish areas, where Ayyubid and Artiqids ruled, written language could be Arab or Persian but not Kurdish, which stayed only oral.

Ottoman language was a mix of Persian/Arab/Turkish terms, not only Turkish.

And if the Kurdish language played a role during Ottoman period, why no Kurdish poet had been quoted translated and imitated by Ottoman writers ?

Persian and Kurdish are from the same family, but it is not enough to say that Kurdish influenced a lot Turkish. Perhaps, perhaps not, I ask proof.

[tomjez]

Excusez moi, it is called Bakur and not Anatolia

Oh ok, I'm sure people from Izmir, trabzon, konya, kayseri will be happy to know they live in Kurdistan.

Or do you want to do like turks and denying the existence of things that obviously exist???

Anatolia is a geographic term, like Mesopatamia: parts of kurdistan are in anatolia, parts in mesopotamia, that's all!

it's like Caucasus or Balkan, no nationalism hidden under it![/quote]

[Piling]

People there should realize that Arab and Persian are in former islamic civlisation the same cultural languages than Greek and Latin in Western. Without any nationalist aim.

Kurdish poets and intellectuals were themselves influenced by Persian poetry. Sharaf Khan wrote in Persian, Khanî praised Jami' and Nezami besides of Herîrî and Cizirî, and Cizirî himself includes in the first poems of his Dîwan, Hafez's verses in Persian, mixed with his Kurdish verses.

[Vladimir]

Anatolia a.k.a Anadolu or something means "Little-Asia" (Klein-Azië in Dutch). It's only Western Turkey. It hasn't got anything to do with Kurdistan. Right Piling? Or am I saying strange things.

[Piling]

I told the same thing, Vlad. Anatolia means the land where the sun rises in Greek language. They called it Greek and Western Asia. Current Kurdistan is situated on Northern-Mesopotamia,Southern-Ancient Armenia (and a small part in Syrian region).

During the Middle Age, Kurdish lands were between Jazirah, and Iraqi 'ajam. It called sometimes "Zûzan", even by Arabs, or "Bilad al-Akrad".

[Vladimir]

Yes, but I think the Turks applied it to hole "Turkey" and now it's taken for granted.

[Piling]

Even under Ottoman empire, Anatolia was only a part of Asian Turkey. I found it in an old Geographical dictionnary :

"L'Anatolie, après avoir longtemps formé un seul pachalik, dont Koutayeh (Kütahya) était la capitale, est aujourd'hui divisée en 11 eyalets : Trébisonde, Kastamouni, Kodavenkiar, Biga, Angora (Ankara), Faroukhan, Aïdin, Karaman (Caramanie), Adana, Marach, Sivas."

http://sohrawardi.blogspot.com/2006/03/ ... html#links

With many and funny variations in localization of Kurdistan, I'll translated it when I have time but you can chekc it in French.

[heval]

Even under Ottoman empire, Anatolia was only a part of Asian Turkey. I found it in an old Geographical dictionnary :

"L'Anatolie, après avoir longtemps formé un seul pachalik, dont Koutayeh (Kütahya) était la capitale, est aujourd'hui divisée en 11 eyalets : Trébisonde, Kastamouni, Kodavenkiar, Biga, Angora (Ankara), Faroukhan, Aïdin, Karaman (Caramanie), Adana, Marach, Sivas."

http://sohrawardi.blogspot.com/2006/03/ ... html#links

With many and funny variations in localization of Kurdistan, I'll translated it when I have time but you can chekc it in French.

Yes, but the ideas within the rule of the Ottoman Empire were different than those within modern Turkey. Even a province of Kurdistan once existed under Ottoman rule, which now under Turkey would be unheard of. Kak Vlad said that Turks have applied Anatolia to the whole "Turkey," not Ottoman to the whole "Ottoman Empire".

[Piling]

Current Turkish nationalism is based on an paranoid and anti-historical amnesia, we know that. Indeed, any nationalisms are anti-historical, paranoid and amnesic.

[McKurd]

Actually, Anatolia is also an expression diligently used by fascist turks to cover the area of northern Kurdistan. The word “Kurd” was replaced my “mountain turk” as well as Kurdistan renamed “eastern-Anatolia”.
You see, this is a perfect example in stressing the importance of acknowledging places their own name otherwise it causes confusion. But ur right, considering the circumstances I should have figured you were talking ´bout western turkey. Enough of that..

Kurdish poets and intellectuals were themselves influenced by Persian poetry. Sharaf Khan wrote in Persian, Khanî praised Jami' and Nezami besides of Herîrî and Cizirî, and Cizirî himself includes in the first poems of his Dîwan, Hafez's verses in Persian, mixed with his Kurdish verses.

Ehm?
When you write "Kurdish poets and intellectuals were themselves influenced..." you are talking in general about all Kurdish poets. THAT is a msitake my dear. Please don't tell me you have forgotten about Nali, Haji Qadir Koye, Baba-Tahir Hamadani, Malaye Jaziri, Wefayi or why not the great satire writer Sheikh Rezay Talabanî? Hemin? Hajjar?

Unfortunately I am not very acquainted (au fait) with Kurdish literature but one thing I do know;
The fact that Xani wrote his Mem u Zin in Kurdish presents us the dynamic of the language at that time, nothing in Xani’s poetry; his language, metaphors, formulations etc is a reminder of Persian or Arabic.

Of COURSE considering the damn circumstances, Kurdish literature have been influenced by the dominating peoples of the region but this have however only been negative. And if we are to talk about infuences, come on, then all of middle-east is a big ground of influences from old Egyptian, Chinese, Hebrew, Indian literature etc

But Piling, Kurdish poetry is faaaar different from Persian. Have you ever read Persian and Arabic poetry? They are in no position of comparison with Kurdish such.

[McKurd]

I am in a hurry but if you want to continue this discussion I'll get back to ya later!

[Piling]

Malaye Jaziri, Wefayi or why not the great satire writer Sheikh Rezay Talabanî? Hemin? Hajjar?

Well I talked precisely about Cizirî (Jazirî) which inserted for example Hafez's verses in his poetry.

Unfortunately I am not very acquainted (au fait) with Kurdish literature but one thing I do know;
The fact that Xani wrote his Mem u Zin in Kurdish presents us the dynamic of the language at that time, nothing in Xani’s poetry; his language, metaphors, formulations etc is a reminder of Persian or Arabic.

Lol, Did you ever read Mem and Zîn ? it is full of Sufi symbols, then Arabic terms ! and the beginning of Mem and Zîn with his praising of Allâh, Muhammad, etc is the exact model of Persian poetry. Some passages seem to be copied on Farid ud Dîn 'Attar.

Mem and Zîn is a great Kurdish work, but not grown up from nothing, Xanî studied Persian ports and praised them, especially Nezami and Jamî, besides Herîrî, Cizrî and Feqî Teyran.

And Feqî Teyran himself in his "Shêx Sena'an" took a tale written by 'Attar.