PJAK’s Guerrillas are on Mount Dalaho in Kermanshah-Iran?

[Bestoun]

PKK spread their idiology through schools in E.K. and thus PJAK was created, that's what I heard. But not sure about that

[Qonyeyi]

PJAK has a pretty stabil stronghold in the Northern EK. A big portion of PJAK's shehids are from Mihebad, Xoy, Urmiye, Maku and Kotol. Especially Urmiye, Xoy and Maku are PJAK strongholds.

[talsor]

based on the comments being posted here , it is obvious that PKK/PJAK have failed to convince the avarage Kurd that they are fighting for kurds and Kurdistan . They are certainly loved for their heroic fight against turkey , but feared even more for their lack of commitment to the kurdish cause . Their latest saga of substituting Kurdistan flag along with portraying Apo like a prophet (if not God) angered many kurds including me . The current strategy being adopted by the organization is a laughable even for someone with an average intelligence and almost zombie or cult like where everyone is programmed to say the same thing . Apo , Apo , Apo , Apo

Dedication to Apo alone and putting him atop of the agenda as clearly stated by PKK and BDP is not a source of pride and admiration but of shame . Kurds do not even have basic human rights in turkey and turkish prisons are filled with kurdish men , women and children , add to that the social and economic problems and all PKK/BDP do is ask for Apo's release like he is going to throw some fairy dust and solve all our problem .

You know what , I wish Apo was the hero he is being portrayed and anyone who have seen videos of his arrest , his trial , the things he said and did after his arrest will testify that he is not .

I"m glad we have several PKK supporters on Roj bash now and I want to emphasize that no one wants PKK to be substituted because that will never happen . PKK need to change and they should start by taking some simple steps to gain kurdish and international support , so here is my suggestions .

1-Raise Kurdistan flag and PKK flag only because 1000 Apo flags in every demonstration is a source of embarrassment and betrayal of Kurdishness .
2-Talk about Kurdish rights , Kurdish children being imprisoned in turkey and the dire economic situation of kurds in Northern Kurdistan , talk about genocide , destruction of Kurdish villages ........ because you will get no sympathy from the international community or Kurds when all you talk about is Apo.
3-Stop calling Kurds "turkish agents " just because they dislike APO for what he said /did and continued to do from his prison cell . Many kurds dislike Apo but still support PKK .

[jjmuneer]

not sorry pkk must not interfier in EK, its KDPI and Komele and will stay that way for ever. go fight turkey you need it.

KDPI doesn't influence Ilam, it doesn't bother to. Most of this unifying is for the Kirmancis in the North.

[purearch72]

not sorry pkk must not interfier in EK, its KDPI and Komele and will stay that way for ever. go fight turkey you need it.

KDPI doesn't influence Ilam, it doesn't bother to. Most of this unifying is for the Kirmancis in the North.

Who does?

[Qonyeyi]

1-Raise Kurdistan flag and PKK flag only because 1000 Apo flags in every demonstration is a source of embarrassment and betrayal of Kurdishness .
2-Talk about Kurdish rights , Kurdish children being imprisoned in turkey and the dire economic situation of kurds in Northern Kurdistan , talk about genocide , destruction of Kurdish villages ........ because you will get no sympathy from the international community or Kurds when all you talk about is Apo.
3-Stop calling Kurds "turkish agents " just because they dislike APO for what he said /did and continued to do from his prison cell . Many kurds dislike Apo but still support PKK .

1) There might be something about your point. I agree with it to a large extent.

2) Talsor, this one is embarassing. How can you say this? ALL demonstrations in Europe are based on fights for Kurdish human rights and to make people aware of the Kurdish situation. We staged demonstrations when Roboski happend, we staged demonstrations when DTP was closed, we staged demonstrations when Leyla Zana was sentenced to several years, hunger strikes and so on and so on. This all has to do with the Kurdish genocide and the human rights. Of course Apo is mentioned whenever there is a demonstration. I see no problem at all with this. In fact, his situation is very important for a lot of Kurds. Look up Kurdish rights on any European newspaper. The first things that will come up is the 10.000 people in Turkish prisons. KCK members, children etc. What does this have to do with Apo?

3) I dont know where you have this from. But I actually understand people who does it. People who hate Apo use same lying rhetorics as Turkish newspapers. They say Apo is insisting on his leader position. But we all know that Apo has said on several occasions that he would rather see BDP and KCK take responsibility and that he will withdraw in the political scene. The people who hate Apo say that Apo supports Turkish integrity. If someone supports a country's integrity, would he support a decentralized autonomus model? No he would not. They say '' Why dont Apo stage a hunger strike''... As if Apo forced the hunger strikers to hunger strike. They say the hunger strikes are useless because Apo will not get released and totaly overlooks the other demands of the hunger strike. I mean, the list, of examples of anti-Apo rhteorics on these boards that resembles Turkish propaganda, is pretty big.

And I never understood the '' You can still love PKK even though you dislike Apo''. Can you like KDP even though you dislike Barzani? Can you love PUK even though you dislike Talabani? Can you love AKP even though you dislike Erdogan? Can you love the Democrats even though you dislike Obama? Can you love the Republicans but dislike Romney? Can you love ANC but dislike Mandela? Can you love Sinn Fein but dislike Gerry Adams? It makes no sense because these leaders ideas and ideologies are directly reflected in the parties. What Erdogan says in a speech is reflected in his party program, what Mandela said in prison was reflected in the ANC party program, like wise Obama, like wise Barzani and like wise Talabani. What Apo writes in a book is reflected in PKK's party program.

People on these boards a biased because no moderators have been taking certain people on these boards seriously when they have been spreading Turkish propganda against PKK and Apo. No wonder people are taking distance from whatever PKK and Apo does on these boards. Its difficult to have a sober debate when a lot of topics about Apo and PKK are negative on these boards ( especially PYD and PJAK and Apo based threads and posts). I have no problem having a sober debate about Apo or PKK, but when you have to correct/inform about certain lies/misunderstandings, those debates can become sooooo long and soooo stillstanding.

[talsor]

2) Talsor, this one is embarassing. How can you say this? ALL demonstrations in Europe are based on fights for Kurdish human rights and to make people aware of the Kurdish situation. We staged demonstrations when Roboski happend, we staged demonstrations when DTP was closed, we staged demonstrations when Leyla Zana was sentenced to several years, hunger strikes and so on and so on. This all has to do with the Kurdish genocide and the human rights. Of course Apo is mentioned whenever there is a demonstration. I see no problem at all with this. In fact, his situation is very important for a lot of Kurds. Look up Kurdish rights on any European newspaper. The first things that will come up is the 10.000 people in Turkish prisons. KCK members, children etc. What does this have to do with Apo?

It certainly looks so to the outsiders and kurds from other regions . Everywhere you look is Apo's flag , every slogn is "biji serok Apo " and I'm talking from personal experience here . Apo in a sense is becoming the cause and every tragedy that happened so far is being used promoted to bring the attention to APO which is really sad .
There was an opening for an art Gallary for some Kurdish artists in Canada few years ago to bring attention to the Kurdish cause and I had the honour of being one of the organizer . Everything went fine until PKK supporters showed up with their table and Apo's books and insisted on being part of the gallery without any notice which made no sense . All attempt to convince them to leave failed and they turned to violence which frankly was very embarrassing because there were too many none kurds there . The mentality of a "dosage of Apo " in every occasion is damaging to our cause and it is counter productive for PKK , but who do you tell when Apo is becoming God like figure and his home is being a Hajj where his supporters make a yearly visit to his home like they are going to Mecca . You are from the north and you are aware of that .

3) I dont know where you have this from. But I actually understand people who does it. People who hate Apo use same lying rhetorics as Turkish newspapers. They say Apo is insisting on his leader position. But we all know that Apo has said on several occasions that he would rather see BDP and KCK take responsibility and that he will withdraw in the political scene. The people who hate Apo say that Apo supports Turkish integrity. If someone supports a country's integrity, would he support a decentralized autonomus model? No he would not. They say '' Why dont Apo stage a hunger strike''... As if Apo forced the hunger strikers to hunger strike. They say the hunger strikes are useless because Apo will not get released and totaly overlooks the other demands of the hunger strike. I mean, the list, of examples of anti-Apo rhteorics on these boards that resembles Turkish propaganda, is pretty big.

You just proved my point heval .
Perhaps you should try it yourself .Ask the organizers of the next demonstration to make it more about kurdistan than Apo and to raise more kurdish flags than Apo flags and let me know what kind of beating you will get .
It is easy to simply label people as Anti Apo just like the muslim do it by saying this person is "kafir" and the topic is then closed . You have to look at the root of the issue and ask yourself why so many patriotic kurds on this site are so anti Apo and some are even anti PKK ?

And I never understood the '' You can still love PKK even though you dislike Apo''. Can you like KDP even though you dislike Barzani? Can you love PUK even though you dislike Talabani? Can you love AKP even though you dislike Erdogan? Can you love the Democrats even though you dislike Obama? Can you love the Republicans but dislike Romney? Can you love ANC but dislike Mandela? Can you love Sinn Fein but dislike Gerry Adams? It makes no sense because these leaders ideas and ideologies are directly reflected in the parties. What Erdogan says in a speech is reflected in his party program, what Mandela said in prison was reflected in the ANC party program, like wise Obama, like wise Barzani and like wise Talabani. What Apo writes in a book is reflected in PKK's party program.

keke min , you could be a communist and hate Stalin in the same time . Ocalan did not come up with any new ideology and you should know that .

People on these boards a biased because no moderators have been taking certain people on these boards seriously when they have been spreading Turkish propganda against PKK and Apo. No wonder people are taking distance from whatever PKK and Apo does on these boards. Its difficult to have a sober debate when a lot of topics about Apo and PKK are negative on these boards ( especially PYD and PJAK and Apo based threads and posts). I have no problem having a sober debate about Apo or PKK, but when you have to correct/inform about certain lies/misunderstandings, those debates can become sooooo long and soooo stillstanding.

I was a moderator of the site for several years and I can tell you without a doubt that each and everyone of the permanent members are kurdish nationalist and have deep concerns for Kurds ,Kurdistan and PKK . Try to rely their concerns to pkk (if you are a member/supporter) because simply stating that they are "spreading Turkish propganda against PKK and Apo" is not healthy and will take us nowhere . Sometimes it is good to take a step back and listen once in a while .

[Qonyeyi]

Heval of course there will be instances where some people remove focus. But I can tell, at least here in Scandinavia, the flags might be Apo flags to some degree but the contenct ( speeches, politicians, papers, media coverage) all focus on the human rights part. This is why I am disappointed at you thinking that people actually think that it is about Apo. Look at the festivals ( MAnheim, Koln etc.) how much of it was actually about Apo? Even Karayilans speech did not mention Apo once and if he did it was maybe 1% of his speech. Newroz speeches are all about the KCK in prison, children in prison etc. This is why I dont understand that you say the demonstrations are about Apo.

Ocalan did come up with a new ideology. Again, this is why we can never discuss in a sober way. You dont know anything about the party program of PKK. You THINK you know like any other.

Reacting towards Turkish propganda is more than healthy. It should be our duty. There is at least one member of these boards that spread Turkish propaganda and I have shown it to other members of the board as well and they have agreed. Go find my topics and you will see for yourself. I remember you agreeing with me too once about the tone towards Apo and PKK. But again, it seems people forget about these principles when it comes to Apo and PKK.

You will find that the same people are making stupidity out of a YPG shehid. Now, if I go and call a Peshmerga shehid stupid, will you tolerate it? Im just asking.

[talsor]

Heval of course there will be instances where some people remove focus. But I can tell, at least here in Scandinavia, the flags might be Apo flags to some degree but the contenct ( speeches, politicians, papers, media coverage) all focus on the human rights part. This is why I am disappointed at you thinking that people actually think that it is about Apo. Look at the festivals ( MAnheim, Koln etc.) how much of it was actually about Apo? Even Karayilans speech did not mention Apo once and if he did it was maybe 1% of his speech. Newroz speeches are all about the KCK in prison, children in prison etc. This is why I dont understand that you say the demonstrations are about Apo.

here we we part heval and I could go all day long without being able to convince you , but I hope you will think about what I said .

Ocalan did come up with a new ideology. Again, this is why we can never discuss in a sober way. You dont know anything about the party program of PKK. You THINK you know like any other.

do tell please .

Reacting towards Turkish propganda is more than healthy. It should be our duty. There is at least one member of these boards that spread Turkish propaganda and I have shown it to other members of the board as well and they have agreed. Go find my topics and you will see for yourself. I remember you agreeing with me too once about the tone towards Apo and PKK. But again, it seems people forget about these principles when it comes to Apo and PKK.

it certainly is and this is not the topic here . Criticizing Apo is not a taboo hevale min and people are free to do it as long as they do not go overboard . The question that you have to ask yourself is why he is being criticized and what can be done by the current leadership of PKK to bring kurds from all part of kurdistan closer to PKK .

You will find that the same people are making stupidity out of a YPG shehid. Now, if I go and call a Peshmerga shehid stupid, will you tolerate it? Im just asking.

I'm not too sure what you mean here .

[Qonyeyi]

A healthy debate about PKK and Ocalan is important. As you say, what can be done from PKK's side to bring Kurds closer to it. I agree on this part. Again, a healthy debate is required. Healthy debates are created by a sober tone and interesting questions that would require answers. A healthy debate is not created by spreading lies and digging up in the past all the time, and keep mentioning Ocalan's ''mistakes in the past'' in every single topic about Ocalan and PKK. How would I look like if I kept calling Barzani and Talabani jashes based upon their birakuji back in the raperin days? If I mentioned these mistakes in every topic about KRG, KDP, KDPI, KNC, PUK... Would that bring a healthy debate? With this mentality, we are wasting our time. Time we could have used asking questions about PKK's and Apo's ideology, their organisation, their ways of working etc.

Heval, democratic confederalism has been implented by PKK on the ideas of Ocalan. Of course, Ocalan has been inspired by other idealists like Bookchin and Wallerstein. You could say that democratic confederalism is the combined system based on several political philosophies that Ocalan, Bookchin and Wallerstein all in some degree agree on. For example social ecology, confederalism and socialism. If you search for democratic confederalism on google, you will find numerous books written by Ocalan. Take a look at them.