Turkey - Federalism - Kurdistan + Zazaistan = True?

[Diri]

I like your peace dove too...

I don't mean to order you around - I just want to give you some piece of advice, and you choose if you wish to listen to it or not... But thanks for taking it into consideration...

I know some Turks who don't want Kurds in Turkey... They want to divide Turkey so that they will be rid of the Kurdish problem... They want to send Kurds to Kurdistan and clean Turkey of all Kurds...

You can be an extremist Turk like that perhaps...

thanks. i know you not order me around. you are giving me good advice i think.

i know some türks like that too. i do not agree with them cause what if some kurds do not want to go east but it would be good for kurds who want to have northern kurdistan. i do not want to be extremist...

i read that the ottoman empire recorded both kirmanckî and kurmanji as tribes of "ekrad", which mean kurds in arabic. i think it strange also that there alot of kirmanckî/kurmanji mixed tribes... and why do we zaza call ourselves kird?

Well there you see... This "divide" which is today, is VERY modern - Only 20 years ago there was no Zaza movement... It is a very new thing - and not many Zaza's agree with it, because Kurmancî and Kirmanckî (Zaza) are so mixed... There are as you said mixed tribes and many Kirmanckî are Sunni Muslim - while there are also Alevi Kurmancî speakers etc... So it's a new national movement which is spreading - but I doubt it'll win the majority, since the majority still considers themselves Kurds...

Look at Mikael Aslan, Aynur Dogan, Kahraman-family, Nilufer Akbal... These are all VERY prominent Kirmanckî Kurdish singers and musicians who believe in the Kurdish people and culture... They speak their Kirmanckî Kurdish - and most of them also speak Kurmancî Kurdish - and feel themselves as "Kurds" not just "Zaza"...

About the extremist Turks who want to divide Turkey: I don't disagree with them per say. But we have to realize something: If a Kurdish state is made, and all those who want to be in Kurdistan go back there, then there will always be SOME Kurds left in Istanbul, Ankara and the rest of Turkey... But if they choose to stay in Turkey, then they must also accept that they are Turks, not Kurds...

See? They have to choose... So if they remain, they are Turks...

[nuray]

I like your peace dove too...

I don't mean to order you around - I just want to give you some piece of advice, and you choose if you wish to listen to it or not... But thanks for taking it into consideration...

I know some Turks who don't want Kurds in Turkey... They want to divide Turkey so that they will be rid of the Kurdish problem... They want to send Kurds to Kurdistan and clean Turkey of all Kurds...

You can be an extremist Turk like that perhaps...

thanks. i know you not order me around. you are giving me good advice i think.

i know some türks like that too. i do not agree with them cause what if some kurds do not want to go east but it would be good for kurds who want to have northern kurdistan. i do not want to be extremist...

i read that the ottoman empire recorded both kirmanckî and kurmanji as tribes of "ekrad", which mean kurds in arabic. i think it strange also that there alot of kirmanckî/kurmanji mixed tribes... and why do we zaza call ourselves kird?

Well there you see... This "divide" which is today, is VERY modern - Only 20 years ago there was no Zaza movement... It is a very new thing - and not many Zaza's agree with it, because Kurmancî and Kirmanckî (Zaza) are so mixed... There are as you said mixed tribes and many Kirmanckî are Sunni Muslim - while there are also Alevi Kurmancî speakers etc... So it's a new national movement which is spreading - but I doubt it'll win the majority, since the majority still considers themselves Kurds...

Look at Mikael Aslan, Aynur Dogan, Kahraman-family, Nilufer Akbal... These are all VERY prominent Kirmanckî Kurdish singers and musicians who believe in the Kurdish people and culture... They speak their Kirmanckî Kurdish - and most of them also speak Kurmancî Kurdish - and feel themselves as "Kurds" not just "Zaza"...

About the extremist Turks who want to divide Turkey: I don't disagree with them per say. But we have to realize something: If a Kurdish state is made, and all those who want to be in Kurdistan go back there, then there will always be SOME Kurds left in Istanbul, Ankara and the rest of Turkey... But if they choose to stay in Turkey, then they must also accept that they are Turks, not Kurds...

See? They have to choose... So if they remain, they are Turks...

i read that too that zaza movement is very modern... also my parents tell me this too. i do not think it will win majority either.

i know they feel themselves as ''kurds'' not just zaza. have you hear agerayîs album by mikail aslan?

if this divide does happen i do not think türks would want kurds to stay here. if so kurds would probably be made fun of and alot worse things done to them. the main reason why i do not think i would want go is cause i am concern about rights of us women. in the east alot of women do not have as many rights like we do here in the west.

[Diri]

I do understand your concerns, Nuray...

But I don't think women can be curved by men alone.... They are human beings who if they want, can bring a lot of change into society... But if you look at Kurdish society, many women are content with how things are - and they dislike change...

But there are luckily some women who struggle very hard to bring change... And I support them in their struggle... That is what we all must do: support the Kurdish woman's right to independence and self-organizing... It should be their own choice, not a social barrier holding them back - which should decide how they live their lives...

If you look at Kurdistan Region of Iraq, you will find that there are many women members of the Kurdish Assembly - and there are a few who hold minister positions...

Much of the backwardsness of the Kurdistan region of Turkey has to do with poverty and education... People don't have jobs and try hard to make ends meet on the one hand... While on the other hand, because they are poor, they have problems getting a proper education for their children - which in turn again leads to worse economy and more poverty and more violence and more destruction in of social norms in society...

If the Kurdistan region of Turkey has some autonomy it will build up it's economy and offer jobs and buisness to the locals - it will also create better conditions for education and offer Kurdish as a second language in elementary and secondary as well as high school... This in turn will lead to improved social and economical conditions - which will lead to more freedom and openness for women etc...

But BECAUSE Kurdistan region of Turkey has been deprived of economy, resources and education, the people is by large poor, uneducated and jobless...

[nuray]

I do understand your concerns, Nuray...

But I don't think women can be curved by men alone.... They are human beings who if they want, can bring a lot of change into society... But if you look at Kurdish society, many women are content with how things are - and they dislike change...

But there are luckily some women who struggle very hard to bring change... And I support them in their struggle... That is what we all must do: support the Kurdish woman's right to independence and self-organizing... It should be their own choice, not a social barrier holding them back - which should decide how they live their lives...

If you look at Kurdistan Region of Iraq, you will find that there are many women members of the Kurdish Assembly - and there are a few who hold minister positions...

Much of the backwardsness of the Kurdistan region of Turkey has to do with poverty and education... People don't have jobs and try hard to make ends meet on the one hand... While on the other hand, because they are poor, they have problems getting a proper education for their children - which in turn again leads to worse economy and more poverty and more violence and more destruction in of social norms in society...

If the Kurdistan region of Turkey has some autonomy it will build up it's economy and offer jobs and buisness to the locals - it will also create better conditions for education and offer Kurdish as a second language in elementary and secondary as well as high school... This in turn will lead to improved social and economical conditions - which will lead to more freedom and openness for women etc...

But BECAUSE Kurdistan region of Turkey has been deprived of economy, resources and education, the people is by large poor, uneducated and jobless...

i agree. i do not know why many women like things way they are. it is good you support womens rights. more men should do this. yes it should be our choice to live the way we want. i did not know that about kurdish region of iraq. i agree with you about poverty and education being cause of this in eastern türkiye and kurdistan region. i do not think türkiye will be divided so i doubt what you say will happen.

[Diri]

I do understand your concerns, Nuray...

But I don't think women can be curved by men alone.... They are human beings who if they want, can bring a lot of change into society... But if you look at Kurdish society, many women are content with how things are - and they dislike change...

But there are luckily some women who struggle very hard to bring change... And I support them in their struggle... That is what we all must do: support the Kurdish woman's right to independence and self-organizing... It should be their own choice, not a social barrier holding them back - which should decide how they live their lives...

If you look at Kurdistan Region of Iraq, you will find that there are many women members of the Kurdish Assembly - and there are a few who hold minister positions...

Much of the backwardsness of the Kurdistan region of Turkey has to do with poverty and education... People don't have jobs and try hard to make ends meet on the one hand... While on the other hand, because they are poor, they have problems getting a proper education for their children - which in turn again leads to worse economy and more poverty and more violence and more destruction in of social norms in society...

If the Kurdistan region of Turkey has some autonomy it will build up it's economy and offer jobs and buisness to the locals - it will also create better conditions for education and offer Kurdish as a second language in elementary and secondary as well as high school... This in turn will lead to improved social and economical conditions - which will lead to more freedom and openness for women etc...

But BECAUSE Kurdistan region of Turkey has been deprived of economy, resources and education, the people is by large poor, uneducated and jobless...

i agree. i do not know why many women like things way they are. it is good you support womens rights. more men should do this. yes it should be our choice to live the way we want. i did not know that about kurdish region of iraq. i agree with you about poverty and education being cause of this in eastern türkiye and kurdistan region. i do not think türkiye will be divided so i doubt what you say will happen.

"Divided"? Autonomy isn't division, Nuray...

Autonomy or FEDERALISM is ONE country... Just like the USA or Belgium or Canada or United Kingdom... The Scotish have their own parliament - but not their own country... And the Welsh have their own assembly but not their own country... Northern Ireland has it's own parliament - but not it's still a part of the United Kingdom...

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the right names of these places - just like Kurdistan is the right name for the South-Eastern regions of Turkey - and giving Kurdistan a parliament wouldn't mean it is a different country - but that small matters (like electricity, industry, culture etc.) will be administered locally instead of from Anakara...

I have the impression you think Kurds (as a whole) are very backwards... And I think I'm right to think so...

[nuray]

"Divided"? Autonomy isn't division, Nuray...

Autonomy or FEDERALISM is ONE country... Just like the USA or Belgium or Canada or United Kingdom... The Scotish have their own parliament - but not their own country... And the Welsh have their own assembly but not their own country... Northern Ireland has it's own parliament - but not it's still a part of the United Kingdom...

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the right names of these places - just like Kurdistan is the right name for the South-Eastern regions of Turkey - and giving Kurdistan a parliament wouldn't mean it is a different country - but that small matters (like electricity, industry, culture etc.) will be administered locally instead of from Anakara...

I have the impression you think Kurds (as a whole) are very backwards... And I think I'm right to think so...

i have impression you think i am dumb cause i do not agree with you. i did not say autonomy is division ok. i misunderstand what you said. maybe i need to improve my english. i doubt kurds will even have autonomy. i do not think all kurds are backward even some türks are backwards too. that is why i said eastern and not southeastern.

[Diri]

"Divided"? Autonomy isn't division, Nuray...

Autonomy or FEDERALISM is ONE country... Just like the USA or Belgium or Canada or United Kingdom... The Scotish have their own parliament - but not their own country... And the Welsh have their own assembly but not their own country... Northern Ireland has it's own parliament - but not it's still a part of the United Kingdom...

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the right names of these places - just like Kurdistan is the right name for the South-Eastern regions of Turkey - and giving Kurdistan a parliament wouldn't mean it is a different country - but that small matters (like electricity, industry, culture etc.) will be administered locally instead of from Anakara...

I have the impression you think Kurds (as a whole) are very backwards... And I think I'm right to think so...

i have impression you think i am dumb cause i do not agree with you. i did not say autonomy is division ok. i misunderstand what you said. maybe i need to improve my english. i doubt kurds will even have autonomy. i do not think all kurds are backward even some türks are backwards too. that is why i said eastern and not southeastern.

Well of course I don't think you are DUMB. I know you and I disagree on some matters, but that doesn't make you dumb. Just as it doesn't make me dumb either. We just have different oppinions. And I respect your oppinions. Because you are constructive and you don't intendedly insult or offend - you speak your mind but at the same time you are sensitive to the issues we discuss. And that is what I try to do too - and if you feel I am not being sensitive enough (and you feel offended) please let me know...

Your English is excellent. There is nothing wrong with it. But if you are unsure about a words meaning. Please feel free to ask. Or you can use http://www.dictionary.com to check the words meaning if you like.

I understand that you feel that "Dogulu" or "Easterners" (in Turkey) are more backwards than others... I disagree with that. Because there are stupid people everywhere.

Thank you for being honest and speaking about your concerns. I appreciate that.

[zurderer]

See? They have to choose... So if they remain, they are Turks...

Even I agree with you, how many people you are ready to sacrify? If people would choose between money and nation, They will choose money. after all, what did kurdistan offer a kurd from istanbul. Powerty? even now, biggest majority of kurds who left their cities, dont even look their older villages..

By the way, what about kurdish immigrants who went to european? do they become french or german? or this situation is special for Turkey?

i read that too that zaza movement is very modern... also my parents tell me this too. i do not think it will win majority either.

I think it will. An increase at nationalism, will result micro nationalism too. Specially, when nations generally divided acording to their langauge and when zaza langauge is accepted as different langauge than kurdish.(So They have reason to call themself as different nation.)

I should also add, It will become majority because of pratical reasons. Becoming a kurd is becaming more and more difficult at western cities.(Thanks to PKK.). So zazas who want to stay away this pressure will prefer to use "zaza" name.

If the Kurdistan region of Turkey has some autonomy it will build up it's economy and offer jobs and buisness to the locals - it will also create better conditions for education and offer Kurdish as a second language in elementary and secondary as well as high school... This in turn will lead to improved social and economical conditions - which will lead to more freedom and openness for women etc...

why? I mean why autonomy will help northern kurdistan? Kurdish cities are already getting more money than they give to Turkey. So I do not see, why autonomy will bring economical success.. why do you think, Kurdish autonomy will increase electiricy income.(specially, when people at this region prefer to not pay their electiricy bill.)

By the way, what is success of DTP at cities? not much? huh?

-I understand that you feel that "Dogulu" or "Easterners" (in Turkey) are more backwards than others... I disagree with that. Because there are stupid people everywhere.

Sure, but poorness and uneducated mass generally become more backwards.

Infact main problem at eastern Turkey is, wealth distribition. I went diyarbakır, and some part of diyarbakir is more advanced and more beatiful than almost all major anatolian cities and same diyarbakır has most poor population of Turkey..(I should also add, because of population growth when rich becoming richer, poor becomes poorer.)

[xosere]

The Kurdish nationalism in Turkey is a product of Turkish nationalistic pressure on Kurd populations.
On the other hand, the Zazaish nationalism is a product of Kurdish nationalistic pressure on Zaza populations.

Let's use Hegel's Dialectic:
Thesis--> Turkish Nationalism; Antithesis--> Kurdish Nationalism
Thesis--> Kurdish Nationalism; Antithesis--> Zazaish Nationalism

This is plain clear.

[Jamo]

Turkey - Federalism - Kurdistan + Zazaistan = True?



This does not make sence to me. I would not like to live under the barbaric Turkish flag. Kurdistan and Zazaistan should be independent countries or or there should be a Zaza and a Kurd state, but not in Turkey! It should be Iranian Federalism. Of course Iran needs a regime change. As long as that dog Ahmedinejad is president there is no hope for federalism.

I personally do not want to do anything with Turks. I do not wanna speak Turkish, carry a Turkish passport or serve in the Turkish military! That's why I left Turkey with my family in 1995. Those that trust in Turkish propoganda are the biggest losers. Turks will never respect Zaza or Kurdish language, culture or anything related to that.

[Marie K.]

Turkey - Federalism - Kurdistan + Zazaistan = True?



This does not make sence to me. I would not like to live under the barbaric Turkish flag. Kurdistan and Zazaistan should be independent countries or or there should be a Zaza and a Kurd state, but not in Turkey! It should be Iranian Federalism. Of course Iran needs a regime change. As long as that dog Ahmedinejad is president there is no hope for federalism.

I personally do not want to do anything with Turks. I do not wanna speak Turkish, carry a Turkish passport or serve in the Turkish military! That's why I left Turkey with my family in 1995. Those that trust in Turkish propoganda are the biggest losers. Turks will never respect Zaza or Kurdish language, culture or anything related to that.

the zazas who had been assimilated to turks may probably choose to unite with turks instead or iran..

[Jamo]

Turkey - Federalism - Kurdistan + Zazaistan = True?



This does not make sence to me. I would not like to live under the barbaric Turkish flag. Kurdistan and Zazaistan should be independent countries or or there should be a Zaza and a Kurd state, but not in Turkey! It should be Iranian Federalism. Of course Iran needs a regime change. As long as that dog Ahmedinejad is president there is no hope for federalism.

I personally do not want to do anything with Turks. I do not wanna speak Turkish, carry a Turkish passport or serve in the Turkish military! That's why I left Turkey with my family in 1995. Those that trust in Turkish propoganda are the biggest losers. Turks will never respect Zaza or Kurdish language, culture or anything related to that.

the zazas who had been assimilated to turks may probably choose to unite with turks instead or iran..

Of course they would. We have a lot of assimilated idiotic Zazas that think that they are Turks. They get assimilated, because they believe in the Turkish propoganda. Turks clearly say that Zazas are Turks. They forbid our language. Now they have a Zazaki program once a week in TRT. They try to mix Zazaki with Turkish as much as possible (~40% Turkish and rest Zazaki). You can see in every aspect of life that Turks try to assimilate the Zazas. Esspecially since Zazas are not Kurds they try to maximize the difference between Kurds and Zazas, on the other hand they try to minimize the difference between Turks and Zazas.

Put it bluntly, do not ever trust Turks.

[xosere]

For Zazas, living under a nation state is not a good option, whether it is Turkey, Kurdistan, or Iran.
Nation states see other ethnicities and languages as their arch enemies. So, for Zazas, the best
option is the EU or and Aryan federal state.

[Emre]

Leave ıt way ıt ıs and have unıty.

[nuray]

I think it will. An increase at nationalism, will result micro nationalism too. Specially, when nations generally divided acording to their langauge and when zaza langauge is accepted as different langauge than kurdish.(So They have reason to call themself as different nation.)

I should also add, It will become majority because of pratical reasons. Becoming a kurd is becaming more and more difficult at western cities.(Thanks to PKK.). So zazas who want to stay away this pressure will prefer to use "zaza" name.

it may happen but i do not want to be part of it. i feel like a türk even though i am zaza.
i agree that becoming a kurd is very difficult. yes, pkk is the cause of this for sure.