Murat Karayılan's words to Kemal Burkay

[Piling]

In short, after second Drogheda meeting, the civil war will involved the PKK for 2 reasons :


1994 : Civil War

1995 :
– Barzani is supported by Turkey (against Talabani supported by Iran)
– PKK fighters launched attacks like nowadays against Turkey from KDP areas ; so KDP has asked them to stop, PKK refused and then peshmergas chased them away. So after september 1995, PUK allied with PKK against KDP.

1996 : PUK and PKK attacked then KDP from North and South. KDP is threatened to be totally occupied by their forces (and at this time PUK forces are stronger). So Barzani called Saddam who entered temporarily in Erbil.Iraki forces entered then in Erbil for one day. It is enough for deciding USa to intervene for saving KDP. In the same time, PUK force fled and Sulaimanieh is even occupied (shorty) by KDP.

at the end of 1996, Southern Kurdistan is shared in 2 areas (KDP/PUK) while Turkey and Iran fight for influence in the country.

at this time, PKK is supported by Syria, Iran and Irak. Fearing its influence in Erbil, KDP asked it to leave. PKK refused. They fought and PKK left Erbil in 1997.

then in 1997, PKK, PUK and Iran launched a new battle (in october). One more time, all KDP area is near to be occupied. Then Turkey, fearing that iran control all S. Kurdistan reacted and helped KDP to resist against PUK, PKK (themselved helped by Iran).

In 1998, USA, finally could obtain that KDP and PUK stopped to fight and then the country is shared in 2 but lived in peace until the final reunification, just before 2003.

But then PKK problem is still alived in S. Kurdistan : KRG needs peace with Turkey, PKK needs that war continues.

And now PKK needs Syria (perhaps for a second shelter) and for that reason supports Bashar.

[unitedkurdistan]

In short, after second Drogheda meeting, the civil war will involved the PKK for 2 reasons :


1994 : Civil War

1995 :
– Barzani is supported by Turkey (against Talabani supported by Iran)
– PKK fighters launched attacks like nowadays against Turkey from KDP areas ; so KDP has asked them to stop, PKK refused and then peshmergas chased them away. So after september 1995, PUK allied with PKK against KDP.

1996 : PUK and PKK attacked then KDP from North and South. KDP is threatened to be totally occupied by their forces (and at this time PUK forces are stronger). So Barzani called Saddam who entered temporarily in Erbil.Iraki forces entered then in Erbil for one day. It is enough for deciding USa to intervene for saving KDP. In the same time, PUK force fled and Sulaimanieh is even occupied (shorty) by KDP.

at the end of 1996, Southern Kurdistan is shared in 2 areas (KDP/PUK) while Turkey and Iran fight for influence in the country.

at this time, PKK is supported by Syria, Iran and Irak. Fearing its influence in Erbil, KDP asked it to leave. PKK refused. They fought and PKK left Erbil in 1997.

then in 1997, PKK, PUK and Iran launched a new battle (in october). One more time, all KDP area is near to be occupied. Then Turkey, fearing that iran control all S. Kurdistan reacted and helped KDP to resist against PUK, PKK (themselved helped by Iran).

In 1998, USA, finally could obtain that KDP and PUK stopped to fight and then the country is shared in 2 but lived in peace until the final reunification, just before 2003.

But then PKK problem is still alived in S. Kurdistan : KRG needs peace with Turkey, PKK needs that war continues.

And now PKK needs Syria (perhaps for a second shelter) and for that reason supports Bashar.

Peshmerga didn't chase PKK away. They tried but couldn't. But Barzani did also cooperate with Iran, in events like dizle. In E.K against PDKI, just to get guns, so did talabani. Syria was already a shelter, before many of the PKK camps were in W.K And many of the members are kurds for W.K Anyway thank you.

[talsor]

Frankly Apoces are an embarrassment to all Kurds and the kurdish struggle which seems to directed at liberating Apo instead of Kurdistan . Majority of Kurds do not attend their rallies for this exact reason , because it is all about Apo and little or nothing about Kurdistan .

Apo is an individual and not a God and must be treated as such . No one can deny the rule he played in Kurdish struggle , but that is all in the past and the moment he offered his heart felt apology to the turkish state he should have lost all his credibility . Hundreds of Kurdish peshmergas were handed to the turkish states by Apo's order to save Apo's neck and saddly PKK was happily complying with his order while he is in turkish custody . Some were even killed by PKK for refusing Apo's order to surrender and some chose suicide .

The turkish state have been and continue to use Ocalan and constantly putting him in the picture through his statement that he issues regularly through his lawyer . If Apo was such a dangerous person and such a nationalist why are they allowing him to make a statements and even issue orders to PKK and BDP from the comfort of his jail guarded by turkish soldiers ? why arrest him in the first place ? ..... I really do not know when will our people wake up . Our leaders are a tool in our hand and they must be discarded the moment they outlive their usefulness and not the other way around .

[jjmuneer]

Frankly Apoces are an embarrassment to all Kurds and the kurdish struggle which seems to directed at liberating Apo instead of Kurdistan . Majority of Kurds do not attend their rallies for this exact reason , because it is all about Apo and little or nothing about Kurdistan .

Apo is an individual and not a God and must be treated as such . No one can deny the rule he played in Kurdish struggle , but that is all in the past and the moment he offered his heart felt apology to the turkish state he should have lost all his credibility . Hundreds of Kurdish peshmergas were handed to the turkish states by Apo's order to save Apo's neck and saddly PKK was happily complying with his order while he is in turkish custody . Some were even killed by PKK for refusing Apo's order to surrender and some chose suicide .

The turkish state have been and continue to use Ocalan and constantly putting him in the picture through his statement that he issues regularly through his lawyer . If Apo was such a dangerous person and such a nationalist why are they allowing him to make a statements and even issue orders to PKK and BDP from the comfort of his jail guarded by turkish soldiers ? why arrest him in the first place ? ..... I really do not know when will our people wake up . Our leaders are a tool in our hand and they must be discarded the moment they outlive their usefulness and not the other way around .

Your right, not just leaders of Kurdistan but any leader of the world is not voted in so he or she is served by his people, but he or she serves their people.

[trapfor]

Come on don't you all know by now, that PYD (PKK) don't accept any other kurdish movement except themselfs? One of the main reasons you often come upon Apoci's whom are incredibly narrow minded is because, when you say your own opinion, they freak out, in to ultra defence mode, they can't accept that the PKK has tainted the kurdish struggle, and let me tell you another thing, the people in northern Kurdistan are really tired, there is no one left in the villages everybody has escaped either from the turkish jandarma or the PKK "freedom fighters". I can take my village for example, a known KUK-SE/PSK village, whom was battered into ruins, and i can tell you that it wasn't the turkish jandarmas who was the real problem, but the "freedom fighters" of the PKK.

[talsor]

Come on don't you all know by now, that PYD (PKK) don't accept any other kurdish movement except themselfs? One of the main reasons you often come upon Apoci's whom are incredibly narrow minded is because, when you say your own opinion, they freak out, in to ultra defence mode, ,

I will have to agree with you .

they can't accept that the PKK has tainted the kurdish struggle,

Do you mean PKK or Apoces ?

and let me tell you another thing, the people in northern Kurdistan are really tired, there is no one left in the villages everybody has escaped either from the turkish jandarma or the PKK "freedom fighters". I can take my village for example, a known KUK-SE/PSK village, whom was battered into ruins, and i can tell you that it wasn't the turkish jandarmas who was the real problem, but the "freedom fighters" of the PKK.

No one is against PKK peshmergas here and let not jump in to conclusion . They are Kurds defending Kurdish rights and they deserve nothing but the respect from us all and anything less will be treason to Kurdishness . however the Apoce element within PKK have been changing the direction of Kurdish struggle and that is what we discussing here .This thread is Not Anti PKK propaganda like so many might think , On the contrary , PKK needs reforms within the organization and that is what we are trying to point out .

[Piling]

however the Apoce element within PKK have been changing the direction of Kurdish struggle and that is what we discussing here

An interesting point to debate would be 'when exactly the PKK is becoming controlled by 'Apocî' ? And concerning its intolerance against other Kurdish parties (i believe absolutely that they could have destroyed some villages which were not even State Militias) if we consider all the history of the movement, was it better in 1980s, or 1990s or the same than now ? In short, it could be informative to determine the main periods of its political evolution and the great changes (or what it has not changed).

[trapfor]

No one is against PKK peshmergas here and let not jump in to conclusion . They are Kurds defending Kurdish rights and they deserve nothing but the respect from us all and anything less will be treason to Kurdishness . however the Apoce element within PKK have been changing the direction of Kurdish struggle and that is what we discussing here .This thread is Not Anti PKK propaganda like so many might think , On the contrary , PKK needs reforms within the organization and that is what we are trying to point out .

Lol, im not against the PKK "Peshmergas" i have nothing against them, they are just people whom have lost there way in the struggle for an independant Kurdistan. I have several relatives, including my brother whom have been within the PKK, but they all have left now, because they are making NO progress in the kurdish question. Lol Apoce element? The PKK IS APOCI within itself, you cant join PKK if you don't declare Ocalan as your supreme commander and leader. I must be honest with you, your view of looking at things twisted. It is know that the PKK haven't done anything for the kurdish language, man even PKK fighters who come from Rojava, learns turkish, how fu**ed up isn't that?

They rather work with CHP and MHP in the struggle to prevent reforms in Turkiye, even though i don't really like the AKP they are doing som good things which nobody can denie, but the PKK (BDP) just simply say that were going to boycott the referandum, i bet you 80 % doesn't even know what "reason" too boycott the referandum.

[talsor]

Lol, im not against the PKK "Peshmergas" i have nothing against them, they are just people whom have lost there way in the struggle for an independant Kurdistan. I have several relatives, including my brother whom have been within the PKK, but they all have left now, because they are making NO progress in the kurdish question.

Who labelled you as being Anti PKK ?
and what would you consider as Progress in your view against turkish backed nato with jets , hellicopter , rockets , limitless supply of weapons in compare with PKK's AK47 ? Having said that if they so irrelevant and such a failure why would turkish government even bother negotiating with them ? why would they spend billions of dollars to fight PKK inside and outside turkey ? Perhaps you are too young , but In the guerrilla style war if the enemy does not achieve a complete victory , then they lose .

History have tought us that Turkey will never solve the kurdish question through peaceful means and they will fight to the last breath before giving Kurds equal rights to turks .

Lol Apoce element? The PKK IS APOCI within itself, you cant join PKK if you don't declare Ocalan as your supreme commander and leader. I must be honest with you, your view of looking at things twisted. It is know that the PKK haven't done anything for the kurdish language, man even PKK fighters who come from Rojava, learns turkish, how fu**ed up isn't that?

I lived for several years in Western and Northern Kurdistan and met with many PKKs and I can assure you that they are not all Apocis . The Apoci idioglogy is making PKK look very stupid and it is laughable in a way considering what Apo said and did after his arrest . PKK is not going anywhere any time soon and they have plenty of public support and sympathy considering what turks have been doing and continue to do . Replacing PKK is not a solution , PKK need to change .

I would have to agree with you on the language issue and simple changes like this should have been done along time ago .

They rather work with CHP and MHP in the struggle to prevent reforms in Turkiye, even though i don't really like the AKP they are doing som good things which nobody can denie, but the PKK (BDP) just simply say that were going to boycott the referandum, i bet you 80 % doesn't even know what "reason" too boycott the referendum.

You make it look like PKK , chip,mhp are on one side and working together against AKP ! MHP and CHP are opposed to the referndum because they do not want to give kurdish rights especially under AKP leadership and PKK/BDP are objecting to the referndum becuase they do not believe it will give kurds enough rights . Now tell me who views are twisted now ?

As for AKP that you seem praise conservatively , the number of arrests have reached over 7000 so far , so I do not know what Good you are talking about . Perhaps you watch too much TV and you are happy with TRT 6 .

[trapfor]

Dubbelpost

[trapfor]

Well what you do NOT understand or want to understand? Is that the PKK IS Öcalan and it will never change so as long it remains this way the PKK are making NO progress whatsoever in the Kurdish struggle. I respect the Gerilla too 100 % and myself have had very close relatives who have been martyred with the PKK but it doesn't change the fact that the gerilla TODAY is nothing but an obstacle for achiving peace in Kurdistana Bakur war is not the right way too approach the solution. And the gerilla not only killing turks but a great deal of kurds aswell whom have been forced to join the turkish army. It is enough now we have had way too much bloodshed the people of bakur can't take it anymore.

Lol hevale Talsor please do read about the Ergenekon davasi and about too which extent the PKK has been infiltrated by it then come and say too me that the BDP doesn't believe it will give us kurds enough rights. It is not a goddamn secret that the top dogs of the PKK have been infiltrated by MIT during the peak of the war Öcalan and Perincek were practically blood brothers. And the biggest Ergenekon agent of them all is of course himself MR. Abdullah Öcalan.

What i am saying is that there exist too sides of the PKK and the BDP one side of which is controlled by the Ergenekon (CHP/MIT) and another side which is kurdish by heart and really do believe in the struggle. Because even you can't deny that the PKK behaves extremely strange and sometimes in an way that hurts us kurds rather than helps us.

And i am only telling the truth about AKP i don't give a goddamn shit about those islamic c*nts i am just telling the truth they have done some good, and please do not degrade me by saying that i am watching too much TV and happy with TRT 6.

And if you would like too enrich your self in this topic i suggest you start reading some books like these ones:
http://www.amazon.com/Ergenekon-Can-D%C ... =ergenekon
http://www.amazon.com/Prison-Writings-V ... C3%B6calan
http://www.amazon.com/Prison-Writings-K ... C3%B6calan

And if you do read which i strongly advice you too do, you will learn the real truth about the PKK and the scenes behind it all because after reading these books no human being can deny that Öcalan and his party have been infiltrated by MIT.

[hevalo27]

you are talking shit,

war is not the right way too approach the solution

tell it the turkish terror state !

And the biggest Ergenekon agent of them all is of course himself MR. Abdullah Öcalan.

loool, since he was the biggest agent he is today in isloation? maybe you are the turkish agent !
i dont care about öcalan and i know that he maked much mistakes and i am for more independence from öcalan, but do you know why
loyality to öcalan was so important? you know it, because you said it, turkey inflitrated the PKK, which wasnt and isnt difficult.

As for AKP that you seem praise conservatively , the number of arrests have reached over 7000 so far , so I do not know what Good you are talking about . Perhaps you watch too much TV and you are happy with TRT

that is it

[talsor]

Well what you do NOT understand or want to understand? Is that the PKK IS Öcalan and it will never change so as long it remains this way the PKK are making NO progress whatsoever in the Kurdish struggle. I respect the Gerilla too 100 % and myself have had very close relatives who have been martyred with the PKK

Says you right ?
Kurdish struggle heval is self defence , so whether a progress made or not it is irrelevant since we have no choice over it . We can not be passive and raise the whitd flag as you are suggesting because it is not the kurdish way .

but it doesn't change the fact that the gerilla TODAY is nothing but an obstacle for achiving peace in Kurdistana Bakur war is not the right way too approach the solution. And the gerilla not only killing turks but a great deal of kurds aswell whom have been forced to join the turkish army. It is enough now we have had way too much bloodshed the people of bakur can't take it anymore.

This is the Turkish mentality of looking at the Kurdish question and like Turks you are not offering any alternatives in resolving the Kurdish issue . There was no PKK after the capture of Ocalan and what did the turkish government do to resolve the kurdish question ? nothing right ? just more arrests , more oppression , more killing .... . PKK is not the problem here , it is the fascist turkish policies that brought us to this stage .

Lol hevale Talsor please do read about the Ergenekon davasi and about too which extent the PKK has been infiltrated by it then come and say too me that the BDP doesn't believe it will give us kurds enough rights. It is not a goddamn secret that the top dogs of the PKK have been infiltrated by MIT during the peak of the war Öcalan and Perincek were practically blood brothers. And the biggest Ergenekon agent of them all is of course himself MR. Abdullah Öcalan.

I know about ergenekon very well heval and it has nothing to do with our struggle . yes our path have crossed with many political groups , some good and some bad but it means nothing . Conspiracies are fun , but it hardly portray reality and in this case not even remotely close to reality .

What i am saying is that there exist too sides of the PKK and the BDP one side of which is controlled by the Ergenekon (CHP/MIT) and another side which is kurdish by heart and really do believe in the struggle. Because even you can't deny that the PKK behaves extremely strange and sometimes in an way that hurts us kurds rather than helps us.

once again you saying what turks are saying .

Theorizing/speculating and reality is two different things . No one has ever proven what you are claiming nor can anyone hide such a huge conspiracy .

And i am only telling the truth about AKP i don't give a goddamn shit about those islamic c*nts i am just telling the truth they have done some good, and please do not degrade me by saying that i am watching too much TV and happy with TRT 6.

Please enlighten us and tell us what Has AKP have done for us . Try to avoid peanut rights like TV station or Kurdish courses and the rest of AKP's none sense , because even a chines can e can apply for a TV license to run chines program or run schools that teaches chines anywhere in turkey . Once again , tell us what has AKP done for us ?

And if you do read which i strongly advice you too , you will learn the real truth about the PKK and the scenes behind it all because after reading these books no human being can deny that Öcalan and his party have been infiltrated by MIT.

So let get this one right .
PKK does not represent 30 millions kurds in the north does it now ? and if you with your limited knowledge established the connection between Ergenekon and PKK/BDP , Then TEll me what is AKP waiting for since PKK/BDP does not represent kurds anyway ? Why is it not giving kurds their right and using PKK/BDP as an excuse ?
Heval , there is a nice proverb in Kurdish that applies to you which says : Ne kara be ker ,té be kurtan

[Kawe]

Well what you do NOT understand or want to understand? Is that the PKK IS Öcalan and it will never change so as long it remains this way the PKK are making NO progress whatsoever in the Kurdish struggle.

I don't want to be part of this conversation, but I read that line and almost laughed. So please, go ahead and explain to us why the Turkish government has given us some rights? You think they did it because they wanted to? Every bit of freedom we have, we have it because the Peshmergas shed their blood and put Turkey under pressure. If it wasn't for the resistance, every city in Bakur would be Turkafied, and every Kurd knows that. The PKK even managed to wake up Kurds in Kermashan, something KDP-I and Komeleh failed to do.

I am saying this, and I am not even a hardcore supported of PKK. I support our Peshmergas, and I support their causes. But I don't fully agree with their ideology.

Kurdistan jin didat be xwene Shehide ma.

[Cewlik]

I respect the Gerilla too 100 % and myself have had very close relatives who have been martyred with the PKK but it doesn't change the fact that the gerilla TODAY is nothing but an obstacle for achiving peace in Kurdistana Bakur war is not the right way too approach the solution.

The PKK declare Armistice 10 times, but it was everytime rejected from the Terror state Turkey.