COMPARING: KURDISH & BALOCHI

[Diri]

Yes - it's better to have one topic to compare the two languages...

Please translate these words to Balochi:

Freedom
Free
Peace
War
Blood
Weapon
Tool
Time
Danger
Brain


This will be interesting - I think we should have a lot of similarities with these words...

[BalochEhr]

sorry for late reply
The Balochi meanings:
Freedom=Azati, Ajoi
Free=Azat, Ajo
Peace=Sala/Salah, Amn, Amn-o-Emni, Khair
War=Jang, Jirha
Blood=Hon also Xon/Khon(in Rakhshani dailect)
Weapon=Sila and Silaband(armed)
Tool=Saz-o-Saman(meaning"other objects"), Balago(in Rakhshani dailect not used in standard Balochi litreture of present times).
Time=Wahd also Waxt
Danger=Por-Hatar,Hatra/Atra(Khatra in persian), Trosnak(Tros=fear, Nak=ful"plural" fearful)
Brain=Majg,Mazgh, "Meli and Melig(in Brahui)"

And i was thinking about Brahui-Kurmanci resemblance:
Bird
Kurmanci=Chuck
Balochi=Murg
Brahui=Chuck
Come
Kurmanci=Were
Balochi=Beya
Brahui=Ber/Bere, Barek
Wellcome
Kurmanci=BaKhairati
Bralochi=Bia Pa Khair and Wash Hati(to used during "bye bye")
Brahui=Ba Khairati

[Diri]

sorry for late reply
The Balochi meanings:
Freedom=Azati, Ajoi
Free=Azat, Ajo
Peace=Sala/Salah, Amn, Amn-o-Emni, Khair
War=Jang, Jirha
Blood=Hon also Xon/Khon(in Rakhshani dailect)
Weapon=Sila and Silaband(armed)
Tool=Saz-o-Saman(meaning"other objects"), Balago(in Rakhshani dailect not used in standard Balochi litreture of present times).
Time=Wahd also Waxt
Danger=Por-Hatar,Hatra/Atra(Khatra in persian), Trosnak(Tros=fear, Nak=ful"plural" fearful)
Brain=Majg,Mazgh, "Meli and Melig(in Brahui)"

And i was thinking about Brahui-Kurmanci resemblance:
Bird
Kurmanci=Chuck
Balochi=Murg
Brahui=Chuck
Come
Kurmanci=Were
Balochi=Beya
Brahui=Ber/Bere, Barek
Wellcome
Kurmanci=BaKhairati
Bralochi=Bia Pa Khair and Wash Hati(to used during "bye bye")
Brahui=Ba Khairati

Freedom = Azadî
Free = Azad
Peace = Aştî
War = Ceng / Şer
Blood = Xwîn / Xûn
Weapon = Çek
Tool = Alet
Time = Zeman / Dem / Kat
Danger = Xeter (Persian = Khatar) / "Tirsonek" = "Afraid" in Kurdish...
Brain = Mejîk / Mêjî / Mejik

By the way - do you know the Kurdish sounds we use in the Kurdish Latin scipt?

Ş = Sh (Shop)
Ç = Ch (Chat)
C = J (Joke)
X = Kh (Khalid)

Yes - there are many similarities with Brahui too... Which one is your native dialect, brother? Balochi or Brahui?

[Emanoelkurdistani]

Dirûd û Silav Ji Hemî Re

Hi All;

Interesting topic. By my point of view Baluchi and Talyshi are two languages you could find traces of Kurdish influence in them with respect to the distance standing between their territories beside sharing so many things in common with all speeches Kurdish people speak due to belong to the same family of languages.


I may classify Kurdish-Baluchi relation in 3 aspects:

1. They belong to the same language family both (Iranian Languages Family)

2. Several migrations have occurred from Kurdistan to Baluchistan of which I can example the banishment of significant number of Barzanî Kurds (originally a Kurdmancî Kurdish speaking tribe) from Behdînan area to Baluchistan during Sassanid empire and existence of several Kurdish communities (speaking Goranî Kurdish) in the western Baluchistan (under Iranian control).

3. I believe there are two Kurdish mainstreams: Northern (Kurdmancî) and Southern (Pehlewanî or Groanî). These streams have so many similar features (lexical, verbal, etc) of which exist among both of them only and illustrate the existence of a Common Kurdish Heritage and the fact why all Kurdish people call their own speeches as "Kurdish" (Kurdî, Kirdî, Kurdmancî, Kirdmanckî, Kirdkî) although according to the linguistics they might be separate languages. Also some of the Kurdish dialects such as Erdellanî, Kelhûrî, Gerrûsî, Feylî are as composed of both streams as you cannot put them under one of the above mainstreams certainly.
Beside original kinship between Median-ancient language spoken in Kurdistan and Parthian, both of Kurdish mainstreams along with the other Iranian languages (Persian, Mazandarani, Gilaki, Talyshi, Baluchi, etc) have been influenced by Parthian language during the rule of Parthian empire. But in this term Pehlewanî branch, specifically Hewramî and Kirdmanckî (also called as Dimilkî, Zazakî or Kirdkî) has been influenced by Parthian language of vast extent. Such influence also has been occurred to the Baluchi language due to the close contact between their ancestors and the Parthian. So we face considerable similarities between Hewramî/Zazakî (Kirdmanckî) and Baluchi. The similarities of exclusive which are resulted by borrowing from the Parthian language more than the other Iranian languages.


The at hand example I might mention is Baluchi "def" meant "mouth". Its common Kurdish (Soranî, Goranî, Hewramî; but as far as I know in most of Zaza-Kirdmancî varieties they use Arabic "fek" same as some Kurdmancî varieties) equivalent is "dem" which turns into "dev" through the change of m > v (e.g. çam > çav; nam > nav; şîm > şîv; mêman > mêvan; zama > zava; em > ev) in Kurdmancî Kurdish. In Behdînanî Kurdmancî (spoken by Barzanî Kurds) there is a desire to pronounce final -ev as- ef, so we get "def" or "ef" instead of common Kurdmancî "dev" or "ev". Baluchi nor any other Iranian language presents such development (m > v) except Kurdmancî Kurdish. Another point of Kurdish influence could be traced in Baluchi is "af" in meaning of "water" which is derived from Kurdmancî Kurdish "av" (in Baluchi only final "v" turns into "f"). The other Baluchi word for "water" is "ap" which is probably followed by Baluchi change of b > p (Parthian "şeb" > Baluchi "şep"; Parthian "ab" > Baluchi "ap").

The most excellent similarity between Hewramî-Zaza and Baluchi occurs in replacement of their original developed kind of Old Iranian "hv-" with Parthian "wx-" (but Kurdmancî-Soranî-Groanî "xw-", Persian "x-/xw-", Mazandarani-Gilaki "x-", Talyshi "x-/h-"). As a common desire most of Iranian languages drop middle "-x-" (Persian is an exception). This desire exists firmly in Kurdish and somehow is one of the signs of Common Kurdish Heritage. In Kurdish middle "-ş-" and "-f-" (turns into –w-) must be counted plus middle "-x-" too (e.g. Avestam "çeşmen" > Common Kurdish "çem/çew/çav", Avestan "roxşne" > Common Kurdish "ron" but "roşn" or "roşin" is borrowed from Parthian, Kurdmancî-Goranî-Hewramî "heft" ~ Soranî-Zaza "hewt"). Then the middle "-x-" from Parthian "wx-" has been dropped in Hewramî-Zaza and Baluchi. So we get:

Baluchi-Hewramî-Zaza "werd-/ward-" (to eat) from Parthian "wxard-" but common Kurdish "xward-", Persian "xord-", Gilaki-Mazandarani "xurd-" and Talyshi "xurd-/hurd-"

Baluchi-Hewramî-Zaza "weş" (fine, sweet), but common Kurdish "xweş", Persian "xoş", Gilaki-Talyshi "xûş", Mazandarani "xeş".

Baluchi "wad" (salt), common Kurdish "xwey/xwa/xwê" and archaic Persian "xûy" (but in meaning of "sweat")


Here are some excellent similar Kurdish-Baluchi words (most of Baluchi word are from Wikipedia's Baluchi Language page):

Baluchi : Kurdish : English
serder : ser be der : naked-head
êş : êt/et (Erdellanî/Gerrûsî) : it
çêr/çîr : çêr/cêr (Hewramî/Kirdmanckî) : under
pêşrew : pêşrew : forerunner
gep : gep : talk/mouth
îda : îta/tiya (Kirdmanckî) : here
ceneg : jendin : to beat/to play music instruments
gwesk : gêsk (Hewramî/Soranî) : "calf" in Baluchi and "goat" in Kurdish
oşteg : wêstin : to stop/to stay
ojneg : ajne (Soranî/Goranî) : to swim
roç/roş : roc/roj : sun
rêk : rêg/rêx : sand
pes/mêş : pez/mêr : sheep
ûştîr : hûştir : camel
men/mon : min : I
to/te : tu/to : thou
ema/ma : em/ême/êma : we
şûma : êşma/şima (Hewramî/Kirdmanckî) : you
awan/ayan : ewan : they
nezîk : nêzîk : near
hewr : hewr : "rain" in Baluchi and "cloud" in Kurdish

[Diri]

Dest xoş - great post!

It was an interesting read - even though some of the points had already been made by kekê Johny Bravo...

[BalochEhr]

To Diri,
Thanks,
In Balochi we also call the Tools "Alat" but its an Arabic word thats why i have not written it. About "Zeman" we call "Zamana/Zemana" Era. Time in Balochi is also known as "Sat"(Persian for time) but not pure Balochi.
It is better that you have told me about Kurdi sounds of Latin scripts..you know, before your information, i was pronouncing Ceng as Seng(War) not Jang . In future you should write the Kurdi in English sounds, because i dont understand Kurdi-Latin pronunciations

Yes you are right there are many similarities between Kurdi and Brahui. We Baloch people know if there is any sister to Balochi language in the world it is Kurdi. And an interesting thing, till late 1970s people in Makkuran region, of Balochistan, called Brahui the Kurdgali(which i said in my early posts) also Kurdi. Still some Christian missionaries call Brahui, Kurdgali, on their websites.
Balochi-Brahui relation, they are two branches of same tree/Baloch. But by late 1800s and early 1900s English colonizers begin to write books about Baloch origions, some of them begin to call Brahui a Dravadian language. But at that time Baloch people not bothered to the English writings, they regarded it as enemy propaganda(and it was propaganda). But we dont know that in coming decades the western researchers would quote those baseless colonial writings. Now if you explain the word Brahui to a western linguist his/her answer will be "mmmaahm aaa Dravadian language, chaps", hell with it. Long story we discuss more in coming days!

Baloch languages
Balochi:
Western Balochi: Rakhshani (spoken in the whole of northern Balochistan/Afghanistan, northern parts of western Balochistan/Iran, northern and central parts of eastern Balochistan/Pakistan ,and central Turkmenistan).
Makkurani(spoken in the southern/coast Balochistan,both eastern and western. The Balochs living in Gulf states and in east African countries speak it.)
Eastern Balochi: Marri-Bugti(spoken in Marri-Bugti area of eastern Balochistan)
Sulemani/Derawal(spoken in Barkaan, Dera Ghazi Khan and Dera Esmail Khan areas of eastern Balochistan)
and
Sindhi Balochi(Spoken by Balochs whole live in Sindh, with lots of Sindhi and Seraki borrowing words)
Brahui:
Sarawani(Spoken in Sarawan region, Kalat, Shal/Quetta, Mastung, Bolan and Sibi areas of eastern Balochistan)
Jalawani(Spoken in Jalawan region, Khuzdar, Nal, Besima and Shanoorani areas of eastern Balochistan)
Sindhi Brahui(Spoken by Balochs who live in Sindh, its style is Jalawani but with Sindhi borrowing words) and
Noshkae’ee also called by Baloch linguists Rakhshani-Brahui(Spoken in the whole of northern Balochistan/Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, northern parts of western Balochistan/Iran and north-western parts of eastern Balochistan/Pakistan)

Dost, Diri Jan,
My family speak both Balochi and Brahui(Rakhshani and Noshkae’ee respectively) but we brothers and sisters speak Brahui at home.

To Emanoelkurdistani,
Lots of scientific text but interesting, you said “By my point of view Baluchi and Talyshi are two languages you could find traces of Kurdish influence in them”. I would say to this, not traces of Kurdi influence, but Kurdi and Balochi are similar to each other .
Thanks

[Diri]

Baloch brother - "Sat" is also Arabic...

The Persian language has more Arabic words than any other non-Semitic language in the region... Only recently have Persians in the diaspora revived some older Persian words - and by borrowing from Kurdish and Dari (Afghani) Persian/Tajik Persian...

Yes "Ceng" = "Jang"... But brother I have explained the sounds - and only 4 of them differ greatly from English pronounciation...

Kh = X => Xanî (house) = Khaani
Ch = Ç => Çek (weapon) = Chak
Sh = Ş => Şer (war)= Shar
C = J => Ceng (war) = Jang

The rest are much the same as English... So it shouldn't be that hard - especially since you already know the X = KH... So only 3 "new" sounds to learn!


It's very interesting you have a region called "Mukkuran" and we have a region called "Mûkriyan" (some say "Mukkran")...

Do you call "Church" for "Der"?

English - Kurdish
Church = Dêr
Mosque = Mizgewt
Fire = Agir
Stone = Ber / Berd / Kewir / Seng
Tree = Dar
Wood = Darik / Texte (Takhta)
Furnice = Şomin / Şomîno (Shomino)

[Emanoelkurdistani]

@ Kak Diri

Sipas birayê delal.

@ BalochEhr

wash o khayr hati. maa khoshaal hastayn yak baluchiya baraadar chimay forum nimaaga hatiga. sorry if my Baluchi is terrible, I'm trying it by myself. Yes bro, indeed Kurdish and Baluchi share so many similarities.

[Arashi]

The Persian language has more Arabic words than any other non-Semitic language in the region... Only recently have Persians in the diaspora revived some older Persian words - and by borrowing from Kurdish and Dari (Afghani) Persian/Tajik Persian...

That's the spoken language...There are very very few words where the original Persian/Middle Persian/Pahlavi word has been forgotten. It's hardly possible with the extensive literature and scripts left in Middle Persian and Pahlavi.
Haha, if you're refering to the Persians in the diaspora who walk around saying "Dorood bar shomaa" they're hardly contributing to anything.

It's interesting how similar most Iranic languages are. The words you guys posted here don't differ much from Persian.

[Diri]

The Persian language has more Arabic words than any other non-Semitic language in the region... Only recently have Persians in the diaspora revived some older Persian words - and by borrowing from Kurdish and Dari (Afghani) Persian/Tajik Persian...

That's the spoken language...There are very very few words where the original Persian/Middle Persian/Pahlavi word has been forgotten. It's hardly possible with the extensive literature and scripts left in Middle Persian and Pahlavi.
Haha, if you're refering to the Persians in the diaspora who walk around saying "Dorood bar shomaa" they're hardly contributing to anything.

It's interesting how similar most Iranic languages are. The words you guys posted here don't differ much from Persian.

Well - of course I am refering to the spoken language... And in that respect, some areas are more arabized than others, naturally... Hordes of Arab armies spread over the Iranian Plateu and sacked important Iranian cities and towns...

What do you mean by the Persians in the diaspora "walking around saying 'Dorood bad shomaa'"? Do you mean to say that they are too "artificial" in their speech?

[Arashi]

What do you mean by the Persians in the diaspora "walking around saying 'Dorood bad shomaa'"? Do you mean to say that they are too "artificial" in their speech?

Yeah, I mean their "effort" in the field of persian linguistics is only superficial and yes, artificial - they're dropping normal sayings and greetings (which happen to be arabic in origin) in favor of older and odder ones, simply to feel prouder or "more" Iranian. In my opinion, they should be reserved to the written or high language, since the spoken is constantly changing.

I remember once at a zoroastrian gathering, there was this convert who went around speaking "high Persian" (sounded like he was reciting the Shahnameh), while the old dari-speaking ladies still responded him with "Salamat bashi", "Inshallah", etc.

[Diri]

What do you mean by the Persians in the diaspora "walking around saying 'Dorood bad shomaa'"? Do you mean to say that they are too "artificial" in their speech?

Yeah, I mean their "effort" in the field of persian linguistics is only superficial and yes, artificial - they're dropping normal sayings and greetings (which happen to be arabic in origin) in favor of older and odder ones, simply to feel prouder or "more" Iranian. In my opinion, they should be reserved to the written or high language, since the spoken is constantly changing.

I remember once at a zoroastrian gathering, there was this convert who went around speaking "high Persian" (sounded like he was reciting the Shahnameh), while the old dari-speaking ladies still responded him with "Salamat bashi", "Inshallah", etc.

That must have been a laugh...

But you have to admit that his efforts, if copied by the rest of Persian speakers, would lead to the revival of old and lost Persian vocabulary... Just like how the Israeli's picked up their old langauge - which had a rich literature, but none who spoke it on a daily basis...

Dari is the closest you'll come to true Persian - in both tonation (the way it sounds) and vocabulary... That is why when an Afghan speaks, it sounds much more native and rustic - and also closer to Kurdish tonation at the same time... While modern Persian sounds melody and "pleasent" to listen to - it's rather artificial...

Besides - now there's a tendency to drop the Â's for O and Ô's instead... Jânam => Jônam etc... Language changes, as you said...

Why don't you want the daily speech to remain as it is and to alter with time as it pleases? Why don't you want to revive older words?

[Arashi]

That must have been a laugh...

But you have to admit that his efforts, if copied by the rest of Persian speakers, would lead to the revival of old and lost Persian vocabulary... Just like how the Israeli's picked up their old langauge - which had a rich literature, but none who spoke it on a daily basis...

Yeah, but it isn't really "dead" to even be revived. As I said, there are VERY few arabic loan-words (I can't think of any right now) where the original Persian one has been lost. They're just not used in daily-speech. The Shah made a try at popularizing original Persian words, but I guess people are used to talk the way they do...

Dari is the closest you'll come to true Persian - in both tonation (the way it sounds) and vocabulary... That is why when an Afghan speaks, it sounds much more native and rustic - and also closer to Kurdish tonation at the same time... While modern Persian sounds melody and "pleasent" to listen to - it's rather artificial...

I'm not really sure of that...might just be regional differances, remains of older languages spoken in the region - or as you say.

Why don't you want the daily speech to remain as it is and to alter with time as it pleases? Why don't you want to revive older words?

I don't think it's important really, as long as you're aware of the alternative/original words. Would be nice, yeah, but it'll take time. Seeing as the largest Persian-speaking population is in Iran, and I can't see Mullahs taking any initiatives

Sorry for the offtopic post, anyway.

[BalochEhr]

To Diri,
Yes Arabi has its influence, on its former colony of Persia. Thanks for the info about Kurdi-Latin sounds.
Church we have no word for Church nor Balochs are christians, if there are new conversions? i dont know about it. In Balochi we say: EH ESAEE ANI MASIT ENTH, meaning: This is the Mosque of Christians.

Balochi meanings:
Christian=Esa'ee(Children of Esa)
Mosque=Masit/Maseet
Fire=Arch and As and Angar= for fire rays and Emission
Stone=Seng and Khal(in Brahui)
Tree=Drachk
Wood=Dar and Takhta means Stage
and i would ask what Furnice means?

To Emanoelkurdistani,
Shom'e baz minatwar mani brass(Thanks a lot my brother).
I would translate your beatiful Balochi which you have written, you said "wash o khayr hati. maa khoshaal hastayn yak baluchiya baraadar chimay forum nimaaga hatiga" {Meaning: Welcome in peace. we are happy that one Baloch brother came from the side of our forum.}
If i say it in Balochi: "Bia pa khair(also=wash hati/pa washi o pa khair hati) maa washan yak Kurd brass'e am'e forum'a hata(also hatag)". Your Balochi is great and you have spoken western Rakhshani dialect. Were did you get it?

Shom'e har doh brassani(Diri o Emano) man minatwar oun.

To all other,
Every race is equal to other race but never occupy others land, never mind.