Hypothetical Question for Kurdish People

[Kulka]

yes, its forum and if someone dare not to agree with turk is psychopath.

[ideas]

There are many indications that BDP, maybe not officially, but there are many who are not declaring the objective of independence and uniting Kurdistan. Here is the 'psych' of a typical Kemalist (lol). We should not give any freedom to 'Mountain Kurds', they will want more. Or, we should have a bargain in a position, even though, 'Mountain Kurds (this is a sarcasm ok) deserve their cultural rights, democratic rights, we should not give them, because they will want more. So give them little, because that is how we bargain.

So this trust issue actually creating 'biggest obstacle' or 'block' to improve Kurdish rights support from Turkish side. But that is another story.

If they don't want to live in Turkey you can't force them.

I say, you are miscalculating the warfare. Remember you are not fighting with Iraq. Your enemy now is Turkey which is one of the biggest NATO army and strongest Army in the region. Do not talk about 20,000 tribe men guerrilla warfare. Turkey can not be brutal to PKK as they would be in classic warfare. Southern Iraq has population which is almost as big as Turkish Army or Iranian army ready to destroy you within a week.

Ohhh, I'm so scared, the fascist Turk talks about his western backed Army, these kind of talks will not scare us there are several factors that you have not taken into considration:-

1. An attack on southern Kurdistan, will cause a massive backlash from the population in Anatolia, you then will have huge problems in Anatolia, and the longer that lasts the more trouble your in, you will possibly face other problems from other minorities. You will possibly face an insurgency style war from the Kurds there, similar to what the US has been facing in Iraq.

2. What makes you think the world will just stand by and let you attack? for example, as I recall in 2007 the Iranian puppet Al-sader was going crazy and was threatening Turkey with his militia if they invaded to deep, that suggests that Iran was not happy about it.

3. We have a lot of gas, and gas the the EU wants as we've signed a contract with RWE (one of the nabucco members) and so, what make you think the EU will just watch you invade?

The odds are against Turkey, becuase in the eyes of the world you will look like the aggressor attacking the pro-Western Iraqi Kurds (As that's the image we have now)

This is another miscalculation, in my opinion. Arabs may have competition within, but once it is time to take care of 'Northern problem', they will show their muscle. The only reason Souther Kurdistan exist now, the way they are is 'occupation'.

No I have not, you just don't have any knowledge on Iraq and how the politics there work, the sunni Arab and Shia Arab would go to war over power, infact they have been indirectly fighting since 2003, like I said, they are severely divided and Iraq has many pro-Iranian officials, that dislike the sunni Arab and prefer Iranian interest over their own.

That is just a fascist Turks fettish and dream, the Arabs have no desire in Attacking Kurdistan, we have been in war with them for 70 years, and they have given up in fact a poll conducted and (60,000), 40,000 of which stated that they would prefer Kurdish independence.

The Iraqi army too is split in loyalty for example the sunni have their own divisions, the shia have several divisions that are broke up into several several other shia groups (i.e. Maliki, Al-sader) and these guys are hostile to each other too, we also have 2 divisions in the Iraqi army whom are loyal to Kurdistan, also we have 10,000 soldiers in Baghdad protecting the green zone, and they form the presidential brigades, some of the most elite in Iraq, so any way on us will cause great tensions.

Besides, what makes you think the US will fully pull out? they still have troops in Germany.

I am not sure about 4250 GDP per capita, it is little too much. And you have oil but if you can't sell it what is the point to have. How are you going to sell it when you depending on Turkey.

Stop talking about things you don't have a clue about, seriously.... the KRG has a GDP that is 25% higher than Iraqs $3537 and we can always sell to china via Iran, so if the west wants our oil they will deal with you, becuase don't forget the biggest investor in the KRG is sinopec (big Chinese oily)

Can you correct the statement above. I think there is some typo.

No typo, google it. "Turks don't like anyone"

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Well, I think you stolen :) this from Turkish language. Anyway, many Kurds have different priorities. I have even Kurdish in my family who do not really have any 'nationalist' ideas. I can see you do but people are different.

I told, when people are occupied that is bound to happen, and I've seen it all before, in the 80's saddam had many Kurds on his side and they said no to independence blah blah blah, as soon as the US invaded with in a second the left his army and joined the rebellion.

[Djembe]

If they don't want to live in Turkey you can't force them.

Ideas. You did not address to the point I am raising. First of all, it is not clear majority nationalist Kurdish people in northern Kurdistan want independence. My points was that, Nationalist Kurdish people not being honest is one of the many obstacles why today's Kurdish people in Turkey do not get more cultural, democratic and political rights. They hijack want to hijack the social consensus on improvement on these rights, because basically their agenda is not improvement of these rights, they want ultimate independence.

Ohhh, I'm so scared, the fascist Turk talks about his western backed Army, these kind of talks will not scare us there are several factors that you have not taken into considration:-

Ideas. No need to insult me here. I am not fascist. You have no base or any evidence that I am a fascist. This is not scare tactics. PKK is acting using military means. This is again 'hypothetical' question we are talking and hypothetically if there is a war, i am calculating the military impact on the conflict.

1. An attack on southern Kurdistan, will cause a massive backlash from the population in Anatolia, you then will have huge problems in Anatolia, and the longer that lasts the more trouble your in, you will possibly face other problems from other minorities. You will possibly face an insurgency style war from the Kurds there, similar to what the US has been facing in Iraq.

Yes, I agree on you that, Turkey while can destroy the Kurdish army in classical war, they can't win the war against rebel warfare in the long run. However, they will not lose either. The conflict would continue but I can't predict the out come of this but if Turkey does not lose this would end up with the independence of northern Kurdistan. Do you think all of the Kurdish population is motivated and ready to have long war to accomplish the independence? Do you have full confidence for this?

2. What makes you think the world will just stand by and let you attack? for example, as I recall in 2007 the Iranian puppet Al-sader was going crazy and was threatening Turkey with his militia if they invaded to deep, that suggests that Iran was not happy about it.

3. We have a lot of gas, and gas the the EU wants as we've signed a contract with RWE (one of the nabucco members) and so, what make you think the EU will just watch you invade?

I did not understand. I am not seeing any conflict between Al-Sader or Iran vs Turkey because of Kurd. And who says, Turkey will invade Southern Kurdistan. That is not something they would do. They just advance into southern Kurdistan, win the war and withdraw. They know they can't afford long term invasion in Southern Iraq. Yes, there will be pressure form EU like they did put pressure on Cyprus as well. But like I said, Turkey would not invade Southern Kurdistan for long term. They would just win the war and make sure such 'united Kurdistan' does not happen and withdraw. They would make sure, Iraqi arabs advance in Southern Kurdistan and change the power shift in key cities i.e. Kirkuk.

The odds are against Turkey, becuase in the eyes of the world you will look like the aggressor attacking the pro-Western Iraqi Kurds (As that's the image we have now)

Ideas. I say you are very optimistic about western. Turkey is a big and strong country. They are the member of NATO, they are the candidate of EU. Kurds will not win war against Turkey. They invaded northern Cyprus. What happen? It is legitimate Turkey to take action against any move that would take land from Turkey.

Like I said, this is hypothetical question, my objective is trying to predict what would happen for potential uniting Kurdistan move. Try to see me as devil advocate.

The Iraqi army too is split in loyalty for example the sunni have their own divisions, the shia have several divisions that are broke up into several several other shia groups (i.e. Maliki, Al-sader) and these guys are hostile to each other too, we also have 2 divisions in the Iraqi army whom are loyal to Kurdistan, also we have 10,000 soldiers in Baghdad protecting the green zone, and they form the presidential brigades, some of the most elite in Iraq, so any way on us will cause great tensions.

Besides, what makes you think the US will fully pull out? they still have troops in Germany.

Ideas. The hypothetical situation is the attempt to 'unite Kurdistan'. If such move happen, current only Kurdish entity Southern Kurdistan will have to deal with Iran, Turkey, Syria and Iraq. You are ignoring the fact that you would be fighting on many fronts.

Stop talking about things you don't have a clue about, seriously.... the KRG has a GDP that is 25% higher than Iraqs $3537 and we can always sell to china via Iran, so if the west wants our oil they will deal with you, becuase don't forget the biggest investor in the KRG is sinopec (big Chinese oily)

Why would Iran help you if you want to take a piece from their land as part of united Kurdistan?

No typo, google it. "Turks don't like anyone"

I take it as a emotional statement, rather than logical one. In diplomacy there is not 'liking'. it is all about interests. Do you think USA likes Kurds? Do you think USA and Turkey are ally because they like each other.

I told, when people are occupied that is bound to happen, and I've seen it all before, in the 80's saddam had many Kurds on his side and they said no to independence blah blah blah, as soon as the US invaded with in a second the left his army and joined the rebellion.

I guess Kurds have to thank to US a lot. But remember. US economy, power is on decline. Turkey is on its way becoming the 10th largest economy on the earth. And may I also remind you that Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria will be on the neighborhood forever, and USA may vacant the property.


Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate your contribution.

[Kulka]

kak Ideas, dont dare to insult turk here, only turk has the right to insult people, calling them sociopath, psychopath or whatever. i recommend you my dear brother to leave it - he represents the "big and strong" country - which if EU let it to join would be the one of the poorest member of EU. "Big and strong" country who must use chemical weapon, coz cant win with kurdish girls and boys in mountains in other way. "big and strong' country who are scared to give basic human rights to a people who must live within its unlegal borders. "big and strong' country which would be nothing without kurdish territory, thats why is doing everything - using bastards methods - to keep kurdish land in their hands.

[ideas]

Ideas. You did not address to the point I am raising. First of all, it is not clear majority nationalist Kurdish people in northern Kurdistan want independence. My points was that, Nationalist Kurdish people not being honest is one of the many obstacles why today's Kurdish people in Turkey do not get more cultural, democratic and political rights. They hijack want to hijack the social consensus on improvement on these rights, because basically their agenda is not improvement of these rights, they want ultimate independence.

So what if they want independence? that is their choice, if they want independence it's their right.

Yes, I agree on you that, Turkey while can destroy the Kurdish army in classical war, they can't win the war against rebel warfare in the long run. However, they will not lose either. The conflict would continue but I can't predict the out come of this but if Turkey does not lose this would end up with the independence of northern Kurdistan. Do you think all of the Kurdish population is motivated and ready to have long war to accomplish the independence? Do you have full confidence for this?

We don't need the whole population, even the standing 6% out of Turkeys population is 4.5 million, and if these people react, they will surely face a brutal reply from the Turks, thins in effect will slowly draw more and more Kurds in. A war on southern Kurdistan, will be a catalyst.

I did not understand. I am not seeing any conflict between Al-Sader or Iran vs Turkey because of Kurd. And who says, Turkey will invade Southern Kurdistan. That is not something they would do. They just advance into southern Kurdistan, win the war and withdraw. They know they can't afford long term invasion in Southern Iraq. Yes, there will be pressure form EU like they did put pressure on Cyprus as well. But like I said, Turkey would not invade Southern Kurdistan for long term. They would just win the war and make sure such 'united Kurdistan' does not happen and withdraw. They would make sure, Iraqi arabs advance in Southern Kurdistan and change the power shift in key cities i.e. Kirkuk.

Protesting Turkey's shelling of northern Iraq, radical cleric
Muqtada al-Sadr warned Sunday that Iraqis would not remain silent in the
face of Ankara's "transgressions"

I can't find it anymore, but in the time of the invasion, he also threatened Turkey with his militia.

The idea that Turkey and Iran are allies is just ridiculous and only the naive people will believe such statements, this has been visible on several occasions and the fact that Iran and Turkey clash on key issues in the middle east, as Iran is closer to Shia movements where as Turkey is closer to sunni movements, and that was demonstrated in the last Iraqi elections where the Turks supported the sunni 'Iraqia' group and Iran supported the Shia groups, looking at the situation in Iraq, you will see the whole regions political reflection.

Your are way ahead of yourself and forgetting that you are not a super-power and only super powers get away with invasions in today's world, and this discussion is ridiculous, public opinion in the world would not allow Turkey to simply invade for no reason, remember the 'feedback' your so called 'allies' gave you in 2007? I suggest you go and read the 'we urge Turkey to pull back as soon as possible' you think the the EU will let this go by? they want our gas, so that they don't rely on Russians gas.

Yes, so Turkey will invade Kurdistan and give Arabs the key, becuase Turkey is the power of the world, and all other countries will stand back and watch as their interests is being destroyed.

Yes, the following people will just stand back and enjoy the right:-

1. Chinese sinopec that has spent billions will just stand back. China’s Sinopec has agreed to a $7.2 billion takeover of Switzerland-based oil company Addax, which has interests in Africa and the oil frontier of Iraqi Kurdistan. (http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/chin ... istan.html)

2. The USA will stand back and watch as Turkey takes out the Kurds and the US would not mind that their political supporters in Baghdad will instead go to Shia Arab who happen to be anti- US.

3. The EU will stand back and watch as turkey destroys their possible gas suppliers.

4. Depending on who the 'Arabs' your referring to you'll have opposition from either side, if your planning on handing it to the Sunni Arab, you will face opposition from shia groups (Iran etc)

5. You are over-estimating what Turkey can do, and what they will do, as if there was something that could have been done, they would have done so by now.

Ideas. I say you are very optimistic about western. Turkey is a big and strong country. They are the member of NATO, they are the candidate of EU. Kurds will not win war against Turkey. They invaded northern Cyprus. What happen? It is legitimate Turkey to take action against any move that would take land from Turkey.

Cyprus is not Kurdistan, the interest of several groups that is found in Kurdistan is not found in Cyprus, which brings me to another point any invasion by the Turks and an all out war between Kurds and Turks will motivate other anti-Turk groups to take advantage i.e. Greeks, Armenians etc.

Like I said, this is hypothetical question, my objective is trying to predict what would happen for potential uniting Kurdistan move. Try to see me as devil advocate.

I see you as an over confident person, and giving Turkey way too much credit.

Ideas. The hypothetical situation is the attempt to 'unite Kurdistan'. If such move happen, current only Kurdish entity Southern Kurdistan will have to deal with Iran, Turkey, Syria and Iraq. You are ignoring the fact that you would be fighting on many fronts.

The unification of Kurdistan is not an easy task, and will only be done when the time is right and the opportunity arises, we are not stupid and now when it's not possible, and at this moment it's not possible.

Why would Iran help you if you want to take a piece from their land as part of united Kurdistan?

Iran is anti-west and has ties with china, a growing power, they both could use all the support they can in the region, and that means there is room for negotiation, and if that means that we put eastern Kurdistan on hold, so be it.

I take it as a emotional statement, rather than logical one. In diplomacy there is not 'liking'. it is all about interests. Do you think USA likes Kurds? Do you think USA and Turkey are ally because they like each other.

Exactly, the Turks don't like the Kurds, and that will not stop Kurds receiving abuse in western cities, therefore when the KRG is developed enough, Northern Kurds will be more motivated to achieve a free Kurdistan, rather then going to western Turkey.

I guess Kurds have to thank to US a lot. But remember. US economy, power is on decline. Turkey is on its way becoming the 10th largest economy on the earth. And may I also remind you that Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria will be on the neighborhood forever, and USA may vacant the property.

Likewise turks should be thanking the US, as I recall your air force is full of western weapons, and your part of an american alliance, which is what gave you a head start on us, so don't be a hypocrite, the Turks were used by the US in the cold war.

[Djembe]

kak Ideas, dont dare to insult turk here, only turk has the right to insult people, calling them sociopath, psychopath or whatever. i recommend you my dear brother to leave it - he represents the "big and strong" country - which if EU let it to join would be the one of the poorest member of EU. "Big and strong" country who must use chemical weapon, coz cant win with kurdish girls and boys in mountains in other way. "big and strong' country who are scared to give basic human rights to a people who must live within its unlegal borders. "big and strong' country which would be nothing without kurdish territory, thats why is doing everything - using bastards methods - to keep kurdish land in their hands.

Turkey's GDP per capita is higher than Bulgaria, Romania. It has the second largest GDP growth in the world after China. Turkey is the 6th largest economy in EU after Germany, France, UK, Italy and Spain.

Unlegal? ha!

And what is the economic value of of Kurdish territory? Strategically yes, how Turkey would be nothing without Kurdish territory, I am puzzled!!!!! Enlighten us.

[Djembe]

Kulka

Where is your post? You are too embarrassed and deleted it?

[Kulka]

Bulgaria and Romania - WOW! Really higher, what a great achievement!!! i am impresed. What about Moldovia and Albania? higher as well? WoW!!!!

[Kulka]

i didnt deleted any of my post - i dont have any reason to feel ambarased, and show where you found this idiot statement that turkya is on 6th place, maybe here:
http://www.aneki.com/countries2.php?t=R ... pe_richest

[Kulka]

maybe its your dream that i will ambarassed with anything - but put in your brainless head - whatever i post i will not deleted it, coz there is NO REASON FOR THAT. do you understand this simple sentence? hatiuu baz

6th after Germany, uk, italy.... - OMG! no comment.

[Djembe]

i didnt deleted any of my post - i dont have any reason to feel ambarased, and show where you found this idiot statement that turkya is on 6th place, maybe here:
http://www.aneki.com/countries2.php?t=R ... pe_richest

Who is idiot?

I clearly stated the '6th largest economy in EU'

Turkey is the 6th largest economy in EU after Germany, France, UK, Italy and Spain.

And you come up with GDP per capita statistics. Do you even have a primary education to know the difference between GDP per capita versus GDP?

[Kulka]

if you have brain you will see that we can only delete the ppost which the last one in a thread - its by the way.

[Kulka]

did you find my post - or still missing and deleted?

[Kulka]

i didnt deleted any of my post - i dont have any reason to feel ambarased, and show where you found this idiot statement that turkya is on 6th place, maybe here:
http://www.aneki.com/countries2.php?t=R ... pe_richest

Who is idiot?

I clearly stated the '6th largest economy in EU'

Turkey is the 6th largest economy in EU after Germany, France, UK, Italy and Spain.

And you come up with GDP per capita statistics. Do you even have a primary education to know the difference between GDP per capita versus GDP?

i wonder in which class of primary school they teach economy? hmmm.... anybody knows?

[Azamat]

What an interesting military discussion!

For once, as long as the quantity/quality of both sides' refutations is kept equivalent, Azamat will just lie down and enjoy the verbal firework!